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US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20

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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 07:11
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bulldurham wrote:
Yale is #8 because of it's name. If you put the same students and employment stats in a school named "Virginia Tech" or "Boston College", no way would it be this high. I visited most schools in the top 10 and was shocked at the valley of quality between the other schools and Yale. When asking their consulting club about MBB, they said.... "yeah we place pretty well, I think Bain is trying to hire more here." Are you joking? Every kid at Tuck who can walk and chew gum at the same time can get a job at MBB if they choose. If Yale was a stock, it is just valued at a way higher multiple than the other schools based on it's undergrad pedigree and possibility of improvement, not on measurable statistics.


May I ask why you applied to Yale?
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 07:20
Wilch wrote:
bulldurham wrote:
Yale is #8 because of it's name. If you put the same students and employment stats in a school named "Virginia Tech" or "Boston College", no way would it be this high. I visited most schools in the top 10 and was shocked at the valley of quality between the other schools and Yale. When asking their consulting club about MBB, they said.... "yeah we place pretty well, I think Bain is trying to hire more here." Are you joking? Every kid at Tuck who can walk and chew gum at the same time can get a job at MBB if they choose. If Yale was a stock, it is just valued at a way higher multiple than the other schools based on it's undergrad pedigree and possibility of improvement, not on measurable statistics.


May I ask why you applied to Yale?


I think it's a great school. I don't think it's the 8th best school. I have a nontraditional background and had no idea if the top schools would view it as valuable haha so I cast a wide net (about 10 schools).
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 08:07
bulldurham wrote:
Wilch wrote:
bulldurham wrote:
Yale at 8 is laughable. Also, Chicago and Stanford tied for 2? Yikes.... There are ten people on this entire site who would choose Booth over Stanford.


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Why is Yale at 8 laughable?

And you're only half right about Booth. I don't think I know a single person that would choose Booth over GSB - even folks who live in Chicago.


Yale is #8 because of it's name. If you put the same students and employment stats in a school named "Virginia Tech" or "Boston College", no way would it be this high. I visited most schools in the top 10 and was shocked at the valley of quality between the other schools and Yale. When asking their consulting club about MBB, they said.... "yeah we place pretty well, I think Bain is trying to hire more here." Are you joking? Every kid at Tuck who can walk and chew gum at the same time can get a job at MBB if they choose. If Yale was a stock, it is just valued at a way higher multiple than the other schools based on it's undergrad pedigree and possibility of improvement, not on measurable statistics.


I don't understand how this equates to Yale being equivalent to Boston College. There does seem to be a lot of frothing at the mouth anytime Yale is mentioned in any of these rankings or in Poets and Quants :roll:

Tbh, any one half decent/competent can get a job in MBB and BB IB coming out of any of the top 10-12 schools. Where Yale is lagging behind is in the alumni network thats all. Apart from the top 1-4, all these schoools are really the same! From what I have found out from current students, everyone who wanted a job in IB and MBB got one (or more).
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 08:17
Quote:

Why is Yale at 8 laughable?

And you're only half right about Booth. I don't think I know a single person that would choose Booth over GSB - even folks who live in Chicago.


Yale is #8 because of it's name. If you put the same students and employment stats in a school named "Virginia Tech" or "Boston College", no way would it be this high. I visited most schools in the top 10 and was shocked at the valley of quality between the other schools and Yale. When asking their consulting club about MBB, they said.... "yeah we place pretty well, I think Bain is trying to hire more here." Are you joking? Every kid at Tuck who can walk and chew gum at the same time can get a job at MBB if they choose. If Yale was a stock, it is just valued at a way higher multiple than the other schools based on it's undergrad pedigree and possibility of improvement, not on measurable statistics.[/quote]

I don't understand how this equates to Yale being equivalent to Boston College. There does seem to be a lot of frothing at the mouth anytime Yale is mentioned in any of these rankings or in Poets and Quants :roll:

Tbh, any one half decent/competent can get a job in MBB and BB IB coming out of any of the top 10-12 schools. Where Yale is lagging behind is in the alumni network thats all. Apart from the top 1-4, all these schoools are really the same! From what I have found out from current students, everyone who wanted a job in IB and MBB got one (or more).[/quote]

While I wouldn't call YSOM laughable, I would also posit there is a bit of gaming the rankings here.

In terms of outcomes, there is a wide gulf on salary, placement (MBB), and elite rotational programs between YSOM and CBS, Tuck, and Haas. Quantitatively, this is reflected in employment rates, starting salaries (an area YSOM decidedly lags significantly), placements (MBB percentage for those going into consulting for instance), and critically the strength of the alumni network, which is where YSOM is really at a disadvantage. This will come with time I would posit, but for the moment (and I would hazard for the next 10 or so years), it is not on par in terms of outcomes as CBS, Tuck, or Haas.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 08:37
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mrm37612 wrote:
Stern's comment on the rankings: http://www.stern.nyu.edu/experience-ste ... oredetails

While US News obviously has a right to enforce its deadlines, this feels like an incredible misrepresentation of data on their part.


That wasn't even a deadline problem, Stern missed a question and US News didn't flag it for them, considering that ranking is US News' business and not Stern one might expect some better controls on their part. And after that they have used an 'estimate' that clearly bad. So we now know that US News and WR lacks some important controls and is bad at estimates. So, even though I didn't trust any of the rankings before, now I have even less trust, as losing 9 points due to some estimate tells us a lot about how close the schools actually are in the rankings. There should be Tiers.

Also, I can't agree with Yale getting ahead of CBS, I love Yale and what they do with SOM, and their alums are great, but it's not in the same league as Columbia, here's one reason (top 10 for every school except for HBS/GSB). The data might be a bit off, but enough to make a point:
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 11:31
Bearinpoint? lol. I am sure it is a fine company, but I don't know anyone from the Yale class of 2015 who went there. I think your data is flawed.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 11:34
briology wrote:
Bearinpoint? lol. I am sure it is a fine company, but I don't know anyone from the Yale class of 2015 who went there. I think your data is flawed.


Yeah, seems like that's exec. trainings of some kind, will remove tomorrow.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 11:45
Most everyone who goes for consulting at Yale does MBB, Deloitte, or Parthenon. There are a few people who end up at boutique firms, but they're less than a handful.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 13:50
briology wrote:
Most everyone who goes for consulting at Yale does MBB, Deloitte, or Parthenon. There are a few people who end up at boutique firms, but they're less than a handful.


Is there a report available?
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 17:07
It's unfortunate to see Stern drop so much due to a missed deadline, since rankings sometimes becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. I hope this doesn't impact the school's reputation in the long term.

The other changes in the top schools aren't statistically significant. The quality of the schools on that end are grouped so tight that small variations in stats can move schools up or down. It seems that top 14 schools are always the same, just musical chairs on positions.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 17:10
bulldurham wrote:
I think it's a great school. I don't think it's the 8th best school. I have a nontraditional background and had no idea if the top schools would view it as valuable haha so I cast a wide net (about 10 schools).


I think Yale is a top 10 school.

Brand name, rankings and momentum, while absolutely should not be the sole considerations when choosing schools, are important for a few reasons.

You'd be amazed how strong Yale's halo effect is outside of the US. I worked in the Asia Pacific region for a while, and the overall institution brand name matters much more than the business school itself. Schools like Tuck, Booth and Kellogg are all sold short and underrated relative to their actual strengths.

Rankings and momentum is important in the way that it draws more applicant and improves yield. Perhaps a year ago students may choose Stern/Fuqua/Ross/Darden over Yale, but these upward trends may change those outcomes. Increased applicants and improved yields allow schools to be more selective in admitting students.

In my opinion, the student body is the single most important asset of business schools. Aside from faculty, which Yale has invested in significantly, your peers are the ones who can make your business school experience a pleasant one (or a crappy one).

I will say that Yale has one significant weakness - and that's their alumni network because they're a relatively young program.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Mar 2016, 17:28
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Why is Yale at 8 laughable?

And you're only half right about Booth. I don't think I know a single person that would choose Booth over GSB - even folks who live in Chicago.


I don't understand how this equates to Yale being equivalent to Boston College. There does seem to be a lot of frothing at the mouth anytime Yale is mentioned in any of these rankings or in Poets and Quants :roll:

Tbh, any one half decent/competent can get a job in MBB and BB IB coming out of any of the top 10-12 schools. Where Yale is lagging behind is in the alumni network thats all. Apart from the top 1-4, all these schoools are really the same! From what I have found out from current students, everyone who wanted a job in IB and MBB got one (or more).


While I wouldn't call YSOM laughable, I would also posit there is a bit of gaming the rankings here.

In terms of outcomes, there is a wide gulf on salary, placement (MBB), and elite rotational programs between YSOM and CBS, Tuck, and Haas. Quantitatively, this is reflected in employment rates, starting salaries (an area YSOM decidedly lags significantly), placements (MBB percentage for those going into consulting for instance), and critically the strength of the alumni network, which is where YSOM is really at a disadvantage. This will come with time I would posit, but for the moment (and I would hazard for the next 10 or so years), it is not on par in terms of outcomes as CBS, Tuck, or Haas.

I don't quite understand these YSOM hating. It's been almost a decade since I first followed GMATClub, and I read the same argument raised against YSOM. So what if YSOM goes to #8? Maybe it belongs and maybe it doesn't. However, it doesn't impact your post-MBA career opportunity, or your MBA experience. I've seen colleagues with bachelors from state school win over promotions over HBS MBA. At the end of the day, it's the individual who makes or breaks his/her career, not the school s/he went to. If you are fortunate enough to go to one of the elite schools. Be thankful you are there, get a good education, and go change the world. Don't worry about another school's ranking. That one is out of your control.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 08:26
Yale is #8 because of it's name. If you put the same students and employment stats in a school named "Virginia Tech" or "Boston College", no way would it be this high. I visited most schools in the top 10 and was shocked at the valley of quality between the other schools and Yale. When asking their consulting club about MBB, they said.... "yeah we place pretty well, I think Bain is trying to hire more here." Are you joking? Every kid at Tuck who can walk and chew gum at the same time can get a job at MBB if they choose. If Yale was a stock, it is just valued at a way higher multiple than the other schools based on it's undergrad pedigree and possibility of improvement, not on measurable statistics.[/quote]

I agree with the part about Yale not being as impressive as other top schools when you visit. Also, I do not mean this in a rude or disrespectful way, but every time Yale's rise in rankings/prestige is mentioned, Ted Snyder is also mentioned. Essentially, the success is attributed to him. When I interviewed at SOM, there was a big presentation and then a student panel, and Ted Snyder spoke. Granted I am not the smartest guy, but I had no idea what he was talking about for most of the time -- it was a long rambling message and his point was that his focus on making Yale the most international business school had made it better than all other schools and specifically better than "their neighbors down there in Philadelphia." During the student panel Q&A (which was nice of the students to do for us), one of the interviewees came right out and asked "Yale SOM has the reputation of being a school with a nonprofit management focus and also one with an alumni base that is significantly smaller than other top schools -- has this been your experience?" This resulted in the majority of the Q&A being spent on why this isn't true and also on how Yale SOM students can leverage the broader Yale alumni base i.e. alumni who had gone to Yale for undergrad. My point is that when Deans at other business schools I visited spoke, I din't hear them disparage other schools (and for the most part I could understand them), and, when I attended other schools' student presentations, I heard them talk more about what they liked about the school, what they planned to do in their careers, and how the school had helped. (Not that it was the SOM students fault that someone asked the question -- the point is that it clearly struck a sensitive nerve). Overall, definitely agree that SOM benefits tremendously from the reputation of the affiliated university...
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 09:13
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I think the "Yale is ranked #8 because of their brand name" is pretty laughable logic. Don't you all know that Yale SOM was named Yale last year and the year before that as well? Their name didn't just become Yale all of a sudden. They moved up to #8 because they have improved in the measurable standings that US News uses to rank business schools.

For the record, I don't think Yale should be ranked as the #8 b-school in the country, but that's not an insult to Yale -- that's more of a commentary on the US News rankings system than anything.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 09:19
bb wrote:
newbornkyd wrote:
Wilch wrote:
Ouch, what happened to NYU?


Most likely it is because NYU did not submit the complete (and perhaps the more important) data elements on time.

Check out this link: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... s-rankings



That makes a lot more sense..... but seems like an un-necessary punishment by US News. I am not convinced that was the right move, though I guess adcom now knows how we feel when they disqualify something. This sucks...

While US News may not want to update their rankings, I will be happy to do that on GMAT Club to reflect the True position of the School....


BB what do you think Stern's true position would be had they turned in everything on time? I was thinking perhaps a 3 way tie for 3rd? But I'm certainly no expert on all this...
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 09:22
gwycliff wrote:
I think the "Yale is ranked #8 because of their brand name" is pretty laughable logic. Don't you all know that Yale SOM was named Yale last year and the year before that as well? Their name didn't just become Yale all of a sudden. They moved up to #8 because they have improved in the measurable standings that US News uses to rank business schools.

For the record, I don't think Yale should be ranked as the #8 b-school in the country, but that's not an insult to Yale -- that's more of a commentary on the US News rankings system than anything.


It is a good point, but I think you are overlooking one thing. Every single person with stats above a certain threshold applies to the top few schools and then a few schools that are outside of the top ten. I would say a huge percentage of these "elite candidates" figure that if they are going to apply to a slightly lower ranked school, it might as well be Yale because of the prestige of the name. I am guessing this probably makes it easier to quickly inflate your average GMAT scores, etc... Although, you could make the argument that this was the case a few years ago as well...
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 10:08
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I mean, do people apply to HBS because they love the case method? Or is it because of the name.

Sure, Yale benefits from the university name. But so do Dartmouth, U Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford.... There isn't a top 10 Bschool that isn't a top university as well, and that's for a reason. The Yale name has helped the school move up in the rankings quickly, no doubt. But the fact that it's risen in the rankings is due to the fact that it's attracted better students. Better students improve the rankings and draw more recruiters, which helps drive up the ranking further. It's all a feedback loop. And for the record I'll admit I would have gone to CBS over Yale. But when I did a pro/con analysis I also found many things I liked more about Yale than CBS- namely the diversity of backgrounds, lack of a dominant industry interest like finance, and full access to the rest of the school (Columbia only allows you to take 2 courses outside the bschool).
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Mar 2016, 18:30
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On the topic of Yale & rankings:

From what I heard, Yale's R1 applicant numbers have jumped by 30% YoY.

If they get an average of 25~30% bump in applicant number from 2015, they would go from 3,449 to approximately 4,300~4,500 applicants. They need a 16% bump overall to hit 4,000 applicants.

Using 2017 numbers, this potential growth puts them right around Sloan (4,300), Kellogg (4,400+) and Booth (4,300), and ahead of Stern (3,700), Ross (3,200), Fuqua (3,500), UCLA (3,500) and Darden (2,700+). I took Haas (3,600) out of the conversation because of its relative small class size.

While not the sole consideration, the number of applicants is among the key indicators of how people value a business school's MBA degree. I think competition for applicants is especially fierce on the east coast, where 9 of the top 15 schools are located.

So, I think if Yale can vault past the 4,000 applicant mark this year, that would be a significant milestone. That shows people "believe" in their product, and that's what business school branding is all about - getting people to buy into that you're a top notch school consistently pumping out high end graduates.

Are H/S/W sending out successful businesspeople because of their curriculum, or are they leveraging their brand name and network to attract exceptional people, who go on to be successful but really didn't need H/S/W to succeed in the first place?

I don't think the best curriculum/education in the world can turn an average person into an amazing business person, schools like H/S/W consistently generate graduates to top notch organizations across a wide industry because the best people gather there. The best people gather there because of these "rankings" and "prestige". 9/10 people will pick the better ranked school when it comes time to pay their deposit, and the wider the overall ranking discrepancy, the easier the decision.

Schools know this, and care about this even though they don't explicitly mention it. I think Peter Henry’s letter addressing Stern’s drop on the USN Rankings says it all. Perception absolutely matters.

To improve prestige and attract better students so they can have more potential graduates who ultimately bring their alma mater "glory" (and consequently improve their alma mater’s image), schools need to play the ranking game - something Booth has done exceptionally well, and something I believe most schools will continue to do.

On the topic of Yale transitioning from a nonprofit and socially focused school to a hybrid of that and a more “typical” business school:

Let me ask you this. If you are a philanthropist, a do-gooder, or someone with exceptional experience looking to move into the nonprofit or social sector – do you take that offer from Stanford, HBS or Yale? Or even dropping that a notch down to say, Sloan, Wharton and Yale? I think perhaps when Yale was consistently ranked between 14th and 18th, even the most socially focused people may be inclined to simply choose the better ranked school, like Haas, Kellogg, Tuck or CBS.

Now that Yale has shot up in the rankings and is looking to solidify its place in the top 10, that decision between Yale and Wharton may no longer be a "no-brainer" (see yale-or-wharton-169378.html) for some folks, and perhaps made it easier for folks who are deciding between Stern, Fuqua, Darden, Ross and Yale.

Should they continue to improve their ranking and sneak into the top 5 (please don’t quote me out of context here, it’s a hypothetical), perhaps the future Jacqueline Novogratz would be a Yale SOM graduate instead (OK, I don’t see them surpassing Stanford, but you get the point).

I know this ranking talk sounds facile, but it certainly is a pragmatic way of approaching things when running a business school.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 18 Mar 2016, 13:00
Here is a bit of analysis in terms of the average GMAT score changes year over year.
Kellogg has had the biggest change, going 11 points up.
Currently the school with the highest GMAT score is still Stanford, followed by Wharton.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20  [#permalink]

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New post 21 Mar 2016, 08:56
jconnol8 wrote:
I mean, do people apply to HBS because they love the case method? Or is it because of the name.

Sure, Yale benefits from the university name. But so do Dartmouth, U Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford.... There isn't a top 10 Bschool that isn't a top university as well, and that's for a reason. The Yale name has helped the school move up in the rankings quickly, no doubt. But the fact that it's risen in the rankings is due to the fact that it's attracted better students. Better students improve the rankings and draw more recruiters, which helps drive up the ranking further. It's all a feedback loop. And for the record I'll admit I would have gone to CBS over Yale. But when I did a pro/con analysis I also found many things I liked more about Yale than CBS- namely the diversity of backgrounds, lack of a dominant industry interest like finance, and full access to the rest of the school (Columbia only allows you to take 2 courses outside the bschool).


Yale does have a dominant industry -- nonprofit.
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Re: US News 2017 Rankings are out! Yale is #8 and Stern is #20 &nbs [#permalink] 21 Mar 2016, 08:56

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