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Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jan 2017, 05:28
This is defender assumption question then why are we taking conclusion as answer ? , while answering we should pick assumption and try to negate it to verify. Some please explain ?

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jan 2017, 09:45
nahid78 wrote:
If j is 10% then others must have to be less than 10%. If there are fewer than 10 types, then some of them must exceed 10%. So A is the correct answer.


But I don't see a premise that makes that true.

The premise says:
"of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii."
the premise does NOT say:
"of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii [AND THAT IS THE NURSERY'S BEST SELLING PLANT] ."

If the premise included the statement that I just added above, then the logic would be true that "If j is 10% then others must have to be less than 10%.", without that restriction, there is no indication that 10% of sales equates to 'Best Selling' or 'Most Popular'. Which means that it doesn't matter if they sell 1,000,000 other varieties or just 3 other varieties, there's still the possibility that another variety of clematis makes up more than 10% of sales and is thus the most popular. And because that possibility exists, the author's argument is therefore NOT dependent on the assumption provided in Option A.

So without the premise that 10% of sales equates to THAT nursery's best selling variety, It seems to me that option A is irrelevant.


What am I missing? How does 10% equate to best selling?

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 11 Feb 2017, 08:35
testprepabc wrote:
rohitbhaya wrote:
Can anyone pls reason out why option E is incorrect.

Is it incorrect because the premise only talks about "the largest nursery", whereas the option generalizes to "all nurseries". Can this be a valid reason to reject option E.

As per my understanding, assumptions should be relate the premise with the conclusion. Here, the conclusion is based on the data from one nursery and it can't be generalized because the author has used "apparently correct" in the main passage.

Hope it helps :)


I can see why A is right, but not why E is not correct.

What if there are 5 more clematis vine nurseries which also sell jackmanii, but if their sales of another variety, "X" is more than the sales of the jackmanii? Assume that the sales of these nurseries is very close to 1 million clematis plants sold per year.
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 01 Mar 2017, 02:49
a.The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis ( RIGHT ANSWER : This is the only scenario in which 10 percent can become the largest possible percentage for anyone variety. Because say if there are only 10 varieties then the sales of each one of them can be 10% and if we decrease the percentage of anyone variety in this scenario by say 1% then that 1% will get added to some other variety thereby making it 11% and then that variety will become the variety with the largest sales numbers overtaking jackamanii.)
b.the largest clematis nursery in North America sells nothing but clematis plants ( WRONG ANSWER : This has nothing to do with the argument)
c.some of the jackmanii sold by the nursery are sold to gardeners outside North America ( WRONG ANSWER: This option is irrelevant to the argument.)
d.most North American gardeners grow clematis in their gardens ( WRONG ANSWER : This doesn’t affect the argument at hand)
e.For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.( Wrong Answer : This option doesn’t talk about the size of the nursery.)

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 28 Mar 2017, 04:41
herbgatherer wrote:
testprepabc wrote:
rohitbhaya wrote:
Can anyone pls reason out why option E is incorrect.

Is it incorrect because the premise only talks about "the largest nursery", whereas the option generalizes to "all nurseries". Can this be a valid reason to reject option E.

As per my understanding, assumptions should be relate the premise with the conclusion. Here, the conclusion is based on the data from one nursery and it can't be generalized because the author has used "apparently correct" in the main passage.

Hope it helps :)


I can see why A is right, but not why E is not correct.

What if there are 5 more clematis vine nurseries which also sell jackmanii, but if their sales of another variety, "X" is more than the sales of the jackmanii? Assume that the sales of these nurseries is very close to 1 million clematis plants sold per year.


Here is my answer:

This is a terrific GMAT question and shows how impt negating is:

Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America is jackmanii. This belief is apparently correct since, of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

a.The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis
b.the largest clematis nursery in North America sells nothing but clematis plants
c.some of the jackmanii sold by the nursery are sold to gardeners outside North America
d.most North American gardeners grow clematis in their gardens
e.For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

This is a great example of the GMAT liking negating. If we answered yes for A then we know nothing but if we answered no than we would know Jackamanii isn’t the most which obliterates the argument. Therefore the assumption is it has more than 10. Even though even with 10 or 100 Jackmanni may still not be the most. For instance if there were only 5 Clems and Jacky was 10% then we would know some other Clem plant is more than 10%. If it were 100 Jack could still be the most impt but a NO answer is super powerful. So the argument depends on there being more than 10.

D) is too strong and the argument never says about all gardens.

E) Is an assumption that the large company is representative of NA as a whole. So if we said yes that at least all 10% of all they sell are Jacky then we still wouldn't know if Jacky is the largest plant. And if we said no we still wouldn't know if Jacky was the largest plant. See if we said no and it was 1% Jacky might still be the largest plant. Therefore only A obliterates the argument if negated while E does very little if its true or not. What if I told you Jacky was 1% of the clementines would you go OH well Jacky isn't the largest plant then. But actually you would still have no idea because there might be 10,000 different types of clementines and 1% is a lot then. But in A if I said there is only 5 clementines than you would know that another jacky must be greater than 10%.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 28 Mar 2017, 12:47
Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America is jackmanii. This belief is apparently correct since, of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

a.The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis
b.the largest clematis nursery in North America sells nothing but clematis plants
c.some of the jackmanii sold by the nursery are sold to gardeners outside North America
d.most North American gardeners grow clematis in their gardens
e.For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.


The Option A is correct because no other choices passes the negation test and also,Option a provides that the jamanii is sold 10 of the total clematis, now if there are less than 10 different varieties then some other variety whould exceed jackmaii in sales percentage and then the argument will be false.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 31 Mar 2017, 21:24
sayantanc2k wrote:
mbaprep2016 wrote:
sayantanc2k and other experts
please help me, my understanding on this question totally wrong, and even after reading comments I am still not convinced.
Conclusion is belief is correct , now what is that belief; the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America is jackmanii.
Here I thought we are talking about whole NA gardeners

premise to help on this will be based on single nursery, which is largest one. from here I started making assumptions .......
1) There must be other nurseries , which sell "varieties of clematis" and if they sell jackmanii as there also with highest percentage , then we can conclude the jackmanii is most popular one. I straight way discard A because it is talking about one nursery.

please help me understanding question first. What is part of the question which i wrongly understood.


The main point of the argument is as follows:

The belief is based on the fact that among all varieties of clematis, the jackmanii is the variety that is sold the most by the largest nursery.

Now if jackmanii constitutes 10% of the total sales by the nursery, then there must be more than ten varieties sold by the nursery - if there had been 10 or less no. of varieties sold, then there would have been at least one other variety that was sold 10% or more and thus jackmanii would not have been the one that was sold the most by the largest nursery.


Hi Sayantanc2k,

Can you explain if A then B construction in more detail? I was not able to apply negation technique correctly here. Assume there are 10 or less than 10 varieties, but as matter of fact we are already given that 10% of sales is J, so how are variety and sales linked? As per link between premises and conclusion, we are looking for connection between popularity and sales.

Wr, Arpit
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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Hi Sayantanc2k,

Can you explain if A then B construction in more detail? I was not able to apply negation technique correctly here. Assume there are 10 or less than 10 varieties, but as matter of fact we are already given that 10% of sales is J, so how are variety and sales linked? As per link between premises and conclusion, we are looking for connection between popularity and sales.

Wr, Arpit


Notice the conclusion is jackmanii is the MOST Popular. It is based on the fact that Out of total, ten percent sold are jackmanii.

Now consider it like this:

Say I have jackmanii sold as 10% and some other variety say XYZ sold as 11%. Now, which one do you think is popular?? Jackmanii or XYZ. Note that Conclusion has been drawn based on the fact that the one that is sold the most is most popular. So, if you say jackmanii is popular despite the presence of XYZ, your conclusion would be weakened.

So, now, if you are saying Jackmanii is popular, you MUST assume that there are atleast 11 varieties out of which none is sold for 10% but jackmanii. If you say there are 9 varieties and Jackmanii is max 10%, it means other's could not be more than or equal to 10, in that case total would never make upto 100%. So, we have to take more than 10 varieties to make the % as 100.

This is what option A is doing. Hence, the correct answer.
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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Many of the explanations here are completely correct, so I'm not sure that I have anything astoundingly new to add to the discussion. But we've had a few requests for expert help, so I'll give this a whirl.

For Arpit, among others: I think that part of the confusion is that we're looking for an assumption that's necessary. That doesn't always mean that it's going to be 100% airtight, or that you'll be able to reach the conclusion with 100% certainty based on that assumption. But the correct answer will be something that's needed to draw the conclusion, even if it's not enough by itself.

In other words: without that assumption, the conclusion couldn't hold.

I see lingering doubts in the thread about why (E) is wrong and why (A) is right.

Let's start with (E):

Quote:
(E.) For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.

This is admittedly a little bit tempting: sure, it would strengthen the argument. But this isn't a strengthen question: we need to know whether this is NECESSARY to draw the conclusion that "the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America."

And it isn't necessary: even if (E) is NOT true -- for example, if jackmanii accounts for less than 10% of clematis plants at a few nurseries -- it's still possible that jackmanii is the most popular. And since (E) isn't necessary, it's not the correct answer.

So what about (A)?

Quote:
(A) The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis


This NEEDS to be true. If the nursery sells fewer than 10 different varieties, then there's no way that jackmanii -- with a market share of 10% at the biggest nursery -- could possibly be #1. This is absolutely necessary to draw the conclusion -- and therefore our correct answer.

But again, (A) isn't necessarily sufficient by itself, either: you could have 20 varieties, and jackmanii could, in theory, be beaten out by one or more of them. But you still need to assume that there are more than 10 in order for jackmanii to be #1. The key takeaway: an assumption can be 100% necessary (and therefore the correct answer), while still leaving possibilities for the conclusion to be false.
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 10 Apr 2017, 19:03
IMO A
My reasoning is that we have a variety of jackmanii that is 10 percent so we must have more than 10 varieties of plants to make the Jackmanii largest sold plant.
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 23 Aug 2017, 09:30
A is correct - Suppose the nursery sold ten or fewer varieties of clematis. Then at least one variety other than jackmanii would have to account for at least 10 percent of the nursery's clematis sales, so jackmanii would not be the best-selling clematis variety at the nursery as the argument assumes.
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 26 Aug 2017, 23:46
E .For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.

This choice is incorrect because it tells us about specific group of "nurseries [that specialize in clematis]"

100% of clematis sold from All nurseries in North America
Let's Assume
20% of clematis sold from "nurseries [that specialize in clematis]"
80% of clematis sold from "nurseries [that NOT specialize in clematis]"

So, E tells us smaller group of nurseries and cannot imply for the dominant sell of clemantis.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 30 Aug 2017, 07:17
A can not be correct

it maybe that there are only 5 kinds, but two kind accounts for 15 percent and the argument fall apart.

I see that unofficial CR questions is not very good. though we use them to practice, I dont want discuss them properly . I think that logic of CR is hard and canbe formated by only GMAC. test prep companies need more resource to make good cr question.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 14 Oct 2017, 12:31
Hi,
I have a confusion about this question.
The question says jackmanii is the most popular among gardeners. It doesn't say that the best selling plant of this largest nursery is jackmanii . Jackmani might be the most popular plant in the whole country but this particular nursery might be selling another flower more. So how do we know that sales share of Jackmani ,%10, is the largest in this nursery?What am I missing?
Thanks.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 18 Oct 2017, 22:52
This is how i resolved the question . can someone please let me know if my method is correct. So the conclusion is that Jackmanii is 105 of the total sales of the Clematis vine and that the total sales account for 1 million . So the total Jackmanii sold is
10% of 1x10^6= 100000 . Now if there are 10 varieties lets say A B C D E F G H I J and jackmanii is 100000 then the rest can be equal to 100000 or few of the types can be greater than 100000 because the total has to be 1x10^6.
If there are 9 varieties (Lets say from A to I ) and A (Jackmanii) is 100000 then the rest are greater than jackmanii to total
1x10^6. So as option A states for the conclusion to be true we have to assume that there are more than 10 varieties

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 18 Oct 2017, 22:53
This is how i resolved the question . can someone please let me know if my method is correct. So the conclusion is that Jackmanii is 105 of the total sales of the Clematis vine and that the total sales account for 1 million . So the total Jackmanii sold is
10% of 1x10^6= 100000 . Now if there are 10 varieties lets say A B C D E F G H I J and jackmanii is 100000 then the rest can be equal to 100000 or few of the types can be greater than 100000 because the total has to be 1x10^6.
If there are 9 varieties (Lets say from A to I ) and A (Jackmanii) is 100000 then the rest are greater than jackmanii to total
1x10^6. So as option A states for the conclusion to be true we have to assume that there are more than 10 varieties

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 19 Oct 2017, 19:03
I am still not that convinced on this one (like many others). I believe there are two valid assumptions in the answer choices. I agree that A is an assumption and selected it as best, but there is also an assumption around E. Since the conclusion is made about the sales of all clematis across North America and not just in one store, there is an assumption that this particular nursery is representative of all the nurseries selling these plants. The reason I believe that A is best is because in stating that at least 10% of the clematis plants these other nurseries sell are jackmanii, you end up back to the assumption in A but now with all these other nurseries. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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New post 19 Oct 2017, 20:31
deucebigalow wrote:
Hi,
I have a confusion about this question.
The question says jackmanii is the most popular among gardeners. It doesn't say that the best selling plant of this largest nursery is jackmanii . Jackmani might be the most popular plant in the whole country but this particular nursery might be selling another flower more. So how do we know that sales share of Jackmani ,%10, is the largest in this nursery?What am I missing?
Thanks.

The conclusion is that the belief--that jackmanii is the most popular variety of clematis vine among North American gardeners--is apparently correct. In other words, the evidence in the passage should support the belief of those gardeners. This does not mean that the evidence in the passage has to prove that the belief is accurate.

The conclusion is that the belief is apparently correct, not that the belief must be true. So, even if we could come up with scenarios that would make that belief inaccurate, the reasoning and conclusion in this passage would not be impacted.

This sets us up for choice (A), as described below: https://gmatclub.com/forum/many-gardene ... l#p1834817
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Re: Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most [#permalink]

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AnuragRatna wrote:
Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America is jackmanii. This belief is apparently correct since, of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

(A) The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis
(B) The largest clematis nursery in North America sells nothing but clematis plants
(C) Some of the jackmanii sold by the nursery are sold to gardeners outside North America
(D) Most North American gardeners grow clematis in their gardens
(E) For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.


I understand that A is the answer here, but I am not convinced that A is a valid assumption.

Largest seller sells - 1 M of clematis, 10% means 100,000 are jackmanii
what if 2nd largest seller sells - 0.9 M clematis, sells only other verity (e.g. X) ==> Total number of verity X sold = 900,000

In this scenario, X is clearly more popular than jackmanii
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New post 16 Nov 2017, 13:37
GMATisLovE wrote:
AnuragRatna wrote:
Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most popular among gardeners in North America is jackmanii. This belief is apparently correct since, of the one million clematis plants sold per year by the largest clematis nursery in North America, ten percent are jackmanii.

Which of the following is an assumption on which the argument depends?

(A) The nursery sells more than 10 different varieties of clematis
(B) The largest clematis nursery in North America sells nothing but clematis plants
(C) Some of the jackmanii sold by the nursery are sold to gardeners outside North America
(D) Most North American gardeners grow clematis in their gardens
(E) For all nurseries in North America that specialize in clematis, at least 10% of the clematis plants they sell are jackmanii.


I understand that A is the answer here, but I am not convinced that A is a valid assumption.

Largest seller sells - 1 M of clematis, 10% means 100,000 are jackmanii
what if 2nd largest seller sells - 0.9 M clematis, sells only other verity (e.g. X) ==> Total number of verity X sold = 900,000

In this scenario, X is clearly more popular than jackmanii


I think you might be conflating a necessary condition for truth with truth itself. Standardized tests love exploiting this paradigm, given their narrow ability to test "comprehension."

For instance, if I claimed that something is a rectangle, the assumption would be that it MUST be a quadrilateral. That is necessary for my claim to ever be true, but it doesn't mean that my claim itself is true. It could be true, or the shape might actually be a trapezoid.

In the same way, the author here claims that, since Jackmanii constitutes 10% of sales volume at some nursery, Jackmanii is therefore the most popular clematis variety. The author is using the typical popularity contest argument: in a garden of X plants, Jackmanni won 10 out of 100 possible popular votes, with 90 votes left for the remaining X-1 plants. Thus, to test whether the author's claim could ever be true, we just need to see if each remaining plant's votes can be both less than 10 and sum to 90 at the same time. That's the same as checking whether the average remaining votes per remaining plant, (90 votes) / (X-1) < 10. Said another way, is X>10 plants?

Option A answers this and thus shields the author from criticism. Now, of course, to your point, even if there were 11 plants, the author's claim could still be false e.g. if Jackmanni gets 10 votes, another plant 81 votes and the remaining 9 plants one vote each. But that possibility doesn't change the fact that if X<=10, the author's claim is quite literally untrue.

Option E doesn't give us the number of other varieties out there. If Jackmanni's was less than 10% of sales but there were a vast number of other varieties, then author's claim could still be true.

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Many gardeners believe that the variety of clematis vine that is most   [#permalink] 16 Nov 2017, 13:37

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