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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
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gmatimothy wrote:
AndrewN - just bumping this response, can't the parallelism be between "[Model is] believed to have been used and [is] recently discovered after it was..."?

AndrewN wrote:
Tanchat wrote:
Hi GMATNinja

Therefore, what is other decision point between B & C ?
I read all posts. But I don't understand why B is incorrect

Hello, Tanchat. I know I am not GMATNinja, but you also sent me a PM with the same question, and you seemed to appreciate my response, so I will reproduce it below for the benefit of the community.

How about we look at a barebones version of (B) to expose its flaws? First, the line as is:

Quote:
B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was

Now, the same sentence without all the extra modifiers:

A model is believed to have been used and discovered after it was...

Now can you see the meaning issue surrounding the parallel elements joined by and? Sure, a model can be believed to have been used by somebody, but was the same model also believed to have been discovered? That would not make sense, but the parallelism suggests such an interpretation.

To follow up on my earlier comment, notice how a simple auxiliary verb could fix the problem:

A model is believed to have been used and was discovered after it was...

Now, it is clear that the model is believed to have been used by somebody and the model was discovered after some time. It is funny how a simple word can change everything, but that is how grammar and parallelism work together sometimes.

I hope that helps clarify the matter.

- Andrew

Hello, gmatimothy. Yes, there could be parallelism between is believed to have been used and recently discovered, but only if the to be verb appears before the second element, as in was recently discovered. (This is not a case in which the verb is understood to carry over, since is and was do not match.) Otherwise, the reader is led to anticipate that used and discovered are held in parallel instead, and the meaning is nonsensical. We could not transpose the two elements without adding a second verb either, since the meaning conveyed would again suffer:

1) [The] model was recently discovered... and believed to have been used... X

2) [The] model was recently discovered... and is believed to have been used...

The first sentence conveys that, apparently, people in the past, not the present, believed that the model had been used for a particular purpose. The second sentence accurately describes the chain of events: a model was discovered, and it is currently believed to have been used at some time in the past for a particular purpose.

Finally, if you are wondering about [The] model is discovered, such phrasing would not make sense to describe the recent discovery of an object. News outlets might report a discovery in this manner in a sensationalized headline—e.g., The Higgs Boson is Found! or, more concisely, Higgs Boson [is] Found!—but the article beneath that headline would more carefully outline that the discovery was made.

Thank you for following up, and good luck with your studies.

- Andrew
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bv8562 wrote:
daagh wrote:
Jon.
Are you meaning that ‘is believed’ is the verb of the subordinate clause? You realize that choice D is a complex sentence involving;
1. The Main IC- It is believed (perse ‘is believed’ is the verb of the main clause) and a loosely hanging subordinate phrase.
2. You also admit the phrase started with ‘that’ is simply a noun with two big essential modifiers. We all know that modifiers are only adjectival or adverbial and not verbs.
3. Then why is the change of stand that ‘is believed’ is the verb, when you know well that you cannot drag the main verb to stand for the subordinate phrase?

5. The noun phrase is dangling without a verb of its own. If a verb is missing, can I know what name you give for it other than ‘fragment’?

If you feel gratified that there is no point in my rationale, pl carry on.


daagh I have a question regarding option D. In option D "that an eight-inch plaster model....nearly 300 years." is the object of "believed", and since "that Michelangelo used for...nearly 300 years" is a modifier modifying "model", it does not express complete thought. Basically if I ignore the "that" modifier after model, I am left with "It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model", which doesn't make any sense. Is this the reason the whole structure is a fragment? If so, do we always need a NOUN CLAUSE to qualify such a structure as sentence? Awaiting your response.


Hello bv8562,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, your analysis is broadly correct; the "reporting verb ("believed" in this sentence) + that" construction must be followed by an independent clause, otherwise the sentence will be incomplete or incoherent.

Kudos.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Elite097 wrote:
Hi GMATNinja avigutman GMATGuruNY

I have a doubt in the portion cited :

And if we treat "discovered" as a modifier parallel to "believed" we get, "An eight-inch plaster model is believed...and [is] discovered..." If it happened "recently," the verb "is" makes no sense. --- [b]Why does this not make sense?[/b]

Also whats wrong with 'used' and 'discovered' to be parallel? This would say that the he model was only "believed to have been recently discovered" so whats the issue?

If you treat "discovered" as a modifier parallel to "believed," then the tense of the shared verb ("is") doesn't work:

  • The 300-year period during which the model was lost must have ended sometime in the past (hence the simple past verb, "was lost").
  • The model must have started being discovered at that same moment in the past (whenever the 300-year period ended).
  • The action of being discovered started in the past and continues into the present--so a present perfect verb (e.g. "has been discovered") would be more clear.
  • The simple present verb ("is") leaves the reader wondering what was going on in between the present moment and the moment when the 300-year period ended. Was the model "discovered" during that time? If so, why are we using a simple present verb?

It makes a lot more sense to say that the model was discovered after it was lost or to say that the model has been discovered after having been lost (as in choice C).

Quote:
Also whats wrong with 'used' and 'discovered' to be parallel? This would say that the he model was only "believed to have been recently discovered" so whats the issue?

At best, this interpretation is confusing. We're talking about some centuries-old model and saying, "Hey, we believe that Michelangelo used this model for his sculpture of David! Also, we believe that it's been recently discovered!!"

Um, you believe that it's been discovered? If it hasn't been discovered, how do you know about it?

Yes, you can come up with some scenario to justify that (who knows, maybe the model was referenced in a book or something). But (C) presents a much clearer and more logical meaning:

  • The model has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.
  • The model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David.

Remember, SC isn't about looking at each choice in a bubble and labeling it definitively wrong or right -- it's about comparing your options and picking the best one. Can we do some mental gymnastics to justify choice (B)? Maybe. But (C) is far simpler, clearer, and more logical, so it's our winner.

I hope that helps!
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RuoChen wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Rocknrolla21 wrote:
GMATNinja, can you please help with choice E?

Why is choice E wrong? Because the 'it' used after comma + and doesn't have a clear referent? 'It' could refer to the plaster model or it could refer to the sculpture. This creates ambiguity in the meaning.

Also, can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?

Thank you!

I think you have the right idea here.

The first "it" in choice (E) doesn't refer to any specific noun in the sentence -- this is known as a non-referential pronoun (check out this thread for more on that). Non-referential pronouns only make sense in very limited circumstances, and they're relatively rare on the GMAT. However, there are not automatically wrong.

But in choice (E), the use of a non-referential pronoun to start the sentence leads us to believe that the second "it" is non-referential as well. In other words, we expect something like, "and it was recently discovered THAT _____". Once we realize that the second "it" actually DOES have a referent, we aren't clear about what that referent actually IS (model? sculpture?).

Does that make (E) wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But choice (C) avoids those issues entirely, so, regardless, (C) is a much better answer.

There's a good discussion of your second question ("can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?") starting with this post (make sure to check out the follow-up questions and answers).

In this official question, "it" and "its" refer to two different things, suggesting that we can't automatically eliminate a sentence that uses the same pronoun to refer to two different things. That said, if other answer choices avoid that issue, that might be a small vote in favor of those other choices.

I hope that helps!


Hi GMATNinja expert,

I had a hard time deciding between C and E, I eliminated C on the basis that [An eight-inch plaster model "believed" ] felt like the model itself can believe(active voice rather than a passive voice here). Wouldn't "is believed" be more appropriate?



Hello RuoChen,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, in Option C the subject noun "eight-inch plaster model" is acted upon by the verb "has been discovered"; "believed" is a past participle serving as a noun modifier, as such it implies that certain information - the fact that Michelangelo used the model for his sculpture of David - is believed.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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RuoChen wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Rocknrolla21 wrote:
[url=https://gmatclub.com:443/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=GMATNinja%5D%5Bb%5DGMATNinja%5B/b%5D%5B/url%5D, can you please help with choice E?

Why is choice E wrong? Because the 'it' used after comma + and doesn't have a clear referent? 'It' could refer to the plaster model or it could refer to the sculpture. This creates ambiguity in the meaning.

Also, can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?

Thank you!

I think you have the right idea here.

The first "it" in choice (E) doesn't refer to any specific noun in the sentence -- this is known as a non-referential pronoun (check out this threadfor more on that). Non-referential pronouns only make sense in very limited circumstances, and they're relatively rare on the GMAT. However, there are not automatically wrong.

But in choice (E), the use of a non-referential pronoun to start the sentence leads us to believe that the second "it" is non-referential as well. In other words, we expect something like, "and it was recently discovered THAT _____". Once we realize that the second "it" actually DOES have a referent, we aren't clear about what that referent actually IS (model? sculpture?).

Does that make (E) wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But choice (C) avoids those issues entirely, so, regardless, (C) is a much better answer.

There's a good discussion of your second question ("can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?") starting with [url=https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-intricate-structure-of-the-compound-insect-eye-having-hundreds-of-132417-40.html#p2533685%5Dthis post[/url](make sure to check out the follow-up questions and answers).

In url=[https://gmatclub.com/forum/schistosomiasis-a-disease-caused-by-a-parasitic-worm-is-prevalent-in-148535.html]this official question[/url], "it" and "its" refer to two different things, suggesting that we can't automatically eliminate a sentence that uses the same pronoun to refer to two different things. That said, if other answer choices avoid that issue, that might be a small vote in favor of those other choices.

I hope that helps!


Hi GMATNinja expert,

I had a hard time deciding between C and E, I eliminated C on the basis that [An eight-inch plaster model "believed" ] felt like the model itself can believe(active voice rather than a passive voice here). Wouldn't "is believed" be more appropriate?

When we use "believed" as a modifier, it doesn't necessarily need a verb. For instance, I can write:

    "James Harden, believed to have been one of the most selfish players in the NBA, somehow led the league in assists."

Here, "believed to have been" is a modifier describing the popular perception of "James Harden." That's fine. And we don't have to worry about any confusion regarding the possibility that Harden himself believes something because the phrase "to have been" makes it clear that we're discussing how others view him.

Same deal in (C). There's only one way to interpret the phrase, "An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo." Again, we get the "to have been" to make it clear that others believed that the model was used by Michelangelo. Makes sense.

I hope that clears things up!
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MissionAdmit wrote:
Hi KarishmaB thank for your answer. I have a few clarification questions if you can please help :

Q1. I think the parallelism in Option B is on point. Please suggest if I am right or wrong?

An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been (a) used [ acting as a modifier] by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and (b)recently [ modifying discovered] discovered after it was

Logic for "used" is a modifier : Check if the action denoted by the verb placed after the noun entity has been performed by that noun entity or not. If the answer is yes, then it is a verb, else it is a modifier. Eight inch plaster model cannot perform the action of "used"


Thus both used and recently are modifier and parallelism is on point


Before you get into nouns and verbs for parallelism, think about whether you should put the elements in parallel at all. Are they a list of equal things?
If each element is taken separately and put in the sentence, does it work and make sense?

An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been
- used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and
- recently discovered after it waslost for nearly 300 years.

An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David - ok
An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been recently discovered after it was lost for nearly 300 years. - ?? It has been recently discovered, not believed to have been recently discovered. Not correct.


MissionAdmit wrote:
Q2. Only option B has correct tense usage. Please correct if I am wrong.

When looking at sequence of actions
Step 1:Michelangelo made David using plaster model
Step 2: Plaster Model was lost for 300 years
Step 3: Plaster Model is recently discovered

Thus any form of Perfect Tense should only be used with Step1 or Step2 and not with Step3. Step 3 will be simple tense

Out of all options, only Option B seems to fit this criterion. In option C perfect tense / perfect continuous tense variations are appearing and confusing me




The discovery has been done. It is complete though it has recency attached to it. So use of present perfect is the best.

A has been discovered ...

(C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.

believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David - Past participle modifier modifying the model

An eight-inch plaster model has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years - Use of 'after' gives the sequence of events so we can use the same tense. As I said above, present perfect tense 'has been discovered' makes sense here. Present perfect continuous works (having been lost) because it spans over a period of time.


MissionAdmit wrote:
3. When we say it is not clear who is "it" referring to it confuses me. Via parallelism I can clearly understand that the sequence following "and" is connecting to an eight inch plaster model .

The stem according to me is "An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been"


Can you please take the time to address these three queries? Will really help my understanding a lot. Thanks!



The ambiguity of 'it' is a non issue since the sentence structure doesn't make sense as given.
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daagh I rejected answer option C because it used the present perfect tense 'has been' with discovery. My logic is any discovery is a single incident and not something that can happen in a continuous manner. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being* lost for nearly 300 years.

A) Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being ---The missing comma after David is a problem in this choice. Perse, it means that his sculpture of David used an eight-inch plaster model and not Michelangelo.

B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was --Structural Parallelism is the casualty after the parallelism marker ‘and’

C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been --- This is the correct choice in spite of the clumsiness

D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was -- dual reference of it is ungrammatical. The first ‘it’ is a place-holder and the second one refers to the plastic model.

E) It is believed that Michelangelo used an eight-inch plaster model for his sculpture of David, and it was recently discovered after having been--- -- dual reference of it is ungrammatical. The first ‘it’ is a place-holder and the second one refers to the plastic model.


daagh is "after being lost" correct?
Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being* lost for nearly 300 years.

D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was -- dual reference of it is ungrammatical. The first ‘it’ is a place-holder and the second one refers to the plastic model.

daagh
Can I say: Choice D is sentence fragment?
Thanks__
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Jon.
Are you meaning that ‘is believed’ is the verb of the subordinate clause? You realize that choice D is a complex sentence involving;
1. The Main IC- It is believed (perse ‘is believed’ is the verb of the main clause) and a loosely hanging subordinate phrase.
2. You also admit the phrase started with ‘that’ is simply a noun with two big essential modifiers. We all know that modifiers are only adjectival or adverbial and not verbs.
3. Then why is the change of stand that ‘is believed’ is the verb, when you know well that you cannot drag the main verb to stand for the subordinate phrase?

5. The noun phrase is dangling without a verb of its own. If a verb is missing, can I know what name you give for it other than ‘fragment’?

If you feel gratified that there is no point in my rationale, pl carry on.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
lnm87

Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being lost for nearly 300 years.

Quote:
A) Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being - WRONG. The placeholder pronoun 'it' seems fine. But I think problem is with the placement of 'it is believed' since the its placement in original sentence suggests to modify Michelangelo whereas it should modify usage of eight-inch plaster model or the model itself. Bit confused, but anyhow looks open ended and clumsily ambiguous.

You may like to view daagh Sir's approach about how without a coma, a verb-ing modifier using incorrectly modifies David.

Quote:
B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was - WRONG. 'And' signifies parallelism but between which two things. So, structure of the sentence is 'Noun(An.. model) + verb(is) + X(believed...David) + and + Y(recently...years). 'Is recently' really doesn't make sense. Not sure though about the way i eliminated it.

Let me try to help.The core of sentence is a discovery, so ideally I would love to see it as main verb .
In this choice, if you look closely to have been used and discovered are made ||el and the sentence no longer
stresses more on a discovery and places discovery and used on same plane of reference.
I think the verb was lost is also incorrect to show prior of two actions (much like a past perfect tense, much on that in a minute)
AjiteshArun MentorTutoring Can you add your two cents, confirming that discovered is not a verb-ed modifier?

Quote:
C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been - CORRECT. 'Believed ... David' just modifies 'An.. model'. Would have been clean if it had been put between two commas. But overall looks best among the five.

Amazing, Do you now see how believed is a modifier that modifies model and believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David just becomes the part of that long modifier. See how has been discovered now forms core verb to match with subject: An eight-inch plaster model.
I will like to add why we need a present participle tense in a passive form since it represents earlier to two actions.
Please refer this and this post for usage of: having been lost


Quote:
D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was : WRONG. Easier to eliminate since 'it' is used twice and they refer to two different things. Also part before and 'It is believed... David' is missing a verb. Plus the clumsiness.

I believe you did superb to catch the absence of missing verb as doubts raised by Asad. Keep up the good work!

Quote:
E) It is believed that Michelangelo used an eight-inch plaster model for his sculpture of David, and it was recently discovered after having been - WRONG. Easier to eliminate. Again similar error for using 'it' as that in D.

If you meant that second it refers to sculpture and not model, Bingo! Good job.
However, I would still take pronoun as last arsenal in my armor kit, and I guess bigger issue is why are we making two independent clauses and losing core meaning to highlight discovery of model. Let me know if this resonates with you.
AjiteshArun MentorTutoring
Could you add why a present participle (in passive form) is used over a past perfect (though later is not present in any options)?
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
GMATninja, EMPOWERGmat
Could you please help in this very very difficult question.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
MentorTutoring AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma
I would really appreciate your inputs, I understand that "Have been Verbed" can be used to
a. Showcase someone that was started in past and continued till current time.
b. Showcase effect of an action that started in past.

However, I am unable to apply and make sense how is this correct in option C.

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.

having been lost for nearly 300 years :- this makes sense as it was lost for a period of 300 years.

But what doesn't make sense to me is "have been used by Michelangelo" and "has been discovered".
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
GMATNinja, can you please help with choice E?

Why is choice E wrong? Because the 'it' used after comma + and doesn't have a clear referent? 'It' could refer to the plaster model or it could refer to the sculpture. This creates ambiguity in the meaning.

Also, can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?

Thank you!
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MentorTutoring

Thank you, so, usage of "present perfect" is correct here, as it used to present accomplishment.
Appreciate your inputs good sir.
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Hello MentorTutoring

I would be very grateful, if you could review my methodology applied in this question, and whether I am making any grammatical mistakes, Thank You.

Quote:
A) Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being


We need to eliminate this bcoz:
a. had made his sculpture of David: The usage of Had is wrong as there no other past tense used in the sentence which has bearing or reference to this “usage of had”.

b. Usage of “using” is wrong as it modifies David, David doesn’t use eight-inch plaster.

Quote:
B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was

We need to check parallelism from Y to X, “recently discovered after it” a verb-ed modifier that needs to make sense with X part and we need to check whether it is parallel to the X part; in the X part, “used by Michelangelo for his” might be taken as parallel (in a mechanical way), However “believed to have been used….” (X) and “believed to have been recently discovered” (Y)changes the meaning and doesn’t make sense. Hence, we can eliminate this option. I hope I am right here.

Quote:
C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been

Had eliminated earlier, due to earlier limited understanding of usage of present perfect Tense.

Quote:
D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was

We need to check parallelism from Y to X, “has recently been” a verb needs to make sense with X part and whether it is parallel to the X part; there is no parallel verb in the X part, even if we take used as a verb “Michelangelo used his sculpture and has been discovered” (Michelangelo has been discovered) doesn’t make sense. Hence, we can eliminate this option.

Quote:
E) It is believed that Michelangelo used an eight-inch plaster model for his sculpture of David, and it was recently discovered after having been
Again checking from X to Y, “It (Model) was recently discovered” (Y) and “Model for his sculpture” (X); there are not structurally parallel, as there is no verb in X. Hence eliminate.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
Dear IanStewart

Could you, please, illustrate how to correctly split the main and auxiliary verb with a conjunction “and”?

For example: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen...

Here “have” applies to both “looked up” and “seen”.

How about a passive construction?

B. An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used... and recently discovered...

Can “have been” apply to “recently discovered” and read as “have been recently discovered”? Is such split legitimate? I was unable to find an official precedent.

Many thanks beforehand!

Originally posted by JonShukhrat on 28 May 2020, 04:54.
Last edited by JonShukhrat on 16 Aug 2020, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
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