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555-605 (Medium)|   Grammatical/Rhetorical Construction|   Idioms/Diction/Redundancy|   Modifiers|                        
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 30 Jan 2022, 22:45
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jabhatta2
Yes, placing "ultimately" before the "with" modifier definitely makes no sense. The "ultimate attempt" of D is also off-base.
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DmitryFarber
jabhatta2
Yes, placing "ultimately" before the "with" modifier definitely makes no sense. The "ultimate attempt" of D is also off-base.
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Hi DmitryFarber
In C-- could you please help explain what about the placement of "ultimately" before with makes no sense ? Does it not make sense with the previous clause perhaps ?

I dont see any difference in meaning in this analogy

Quote:

(option B) I bought the gun, with the goal to ultimately kill John.
(option C) I bought the gun, ultimately with the goal to kill John
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MartyTargetTestPrep


"Ultimate goal" plays a logical role in the sentence's describing the end goal of the Tourism Commission.

"Ultimately reduce" is not quite logical. What exactly is ultimately reducing something? "We want to ultimately reduce X," isn't really logical.
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HI MartyTargetTestPrep -
Interesting you say Ultimate goal makes more sense. While i understand the difference between Ultimate goal and Ultimately reduce - what makes more sense with the previous clause ? [The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most popular resorts....]

I thought Ultimately reduce made more sense because of the previous clause specifically.

How can one expect to conduct a survey ONLY if you are hoping to reduce the number of unhappy guests ? The survey is just ONE STEP in a series of steps obviously, the tourism commision has to take. Given there are 'many steps' [not just conducting a survey] that the tourism commission has to take in order to achieve the goal -- the word ultimately reduce [or eventually] made more sense to me.

ultimately reduce [or eventually] re-inforces the fact that MANY STEPS are in between by the time the tourism commision reaches its goal.

That too me makes sense because conducting a survey obviously is just the first step.

Ultimate goal is also okay but in my view Ultimately reduce is better because we know conducting a survey is just one of a series of steps the commission has to take in order to achieve the goal ..
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 31 Jan 2022, 13:37
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jabhatta2

It might be better to condense some of these ideas down into one post, since the threads you're pulling on with me and Marty are very similar. Also, I think much of the trouble stems from the fact that ULTIMATELY creates confusion no matter where we place it in the sentence. The meaning clearly expressed in E is that reducing the number of people who express dissatisfaction is the ultimate goal of the commission. That is, this is the goal that they want to achieve at the end of a series of efforts. Keep in mind that this is the meaning of “ultimate” that is retained in “ultimately.” We’re describing something that happened, or will happen, at the end of a sequence of events.
We could certainly express this idea with “ultimately” if the second half were a separate clause:

The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most popular resorts; ultimately, the commission’s goal is to reduce the number of guests who express overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service.

However, when we add “ultimately” to the modifier, we end up with trouble. The exact position of the word matters, and it creates a weird meaning wherever we put it in this phrase!

ultimately with the goal to reduce
It sounds like they only have the goal at the end. They weren’t with the goal initially, but later on they are with the goal. This doesn’t make sense. For the same reason, your option C about the gun doesn’t work. (By the way, I hope John is okay.)

with ultimately the goal to reduce
This just isn’t a coherent English word order. If we want “ultimately” to apply to “with,” we should place it before for clarity. It can’t apply to a noun (“the goal”).

with the goal ultimately to reduce / with the goal to ultimately reduce
I’ll consider these together. Since an adverb can’t apply to “the goal,” both of these must be using “ultimately” to modify the infinitive verb “to reduce.” This is a valid place to put an adverb, but it’s not how we typically use “ultimately.” I might say “I want to finally increase my running speed” if I had tried before and hoped to hit the accomplishment now. But “ultimately” doesn’t work the same way. If we used it here, it would sound as if we ONLY wanted the result later, as the result of a series of steps, and would not be happy to have it now. That’s not something we typically say. (This cuts option B about the gun.)

with the goal to reduce ultimately
We don’t normally place adverbs directly after the verb like this. We can say “I want to gradually lose weight,” not “I want to lose gradually weight.”

One additional source of confusion here is that ULTIMATE has a wider range of meanings than ULTIMATELY. Often, we use “ultimate” to talk about something that is the most, best, or furthest extreme available. “This roller coaster is the ultimate thrill ride.” That’s not a meaning that really works in adverb form, but there are shades of that meaning when we misplace ULTIMATELY. So when you say “ultimately kill John,” it sounds like an extreme action. Perhaps John is a vampire or demon lord, and he is being killed once and for all this time. Similarly, when you say “ultimately reduce,” there are shades of grinding that number into dust. This may not be a standard dictionary usage of “ultimately,” but since these placements aren’t standard to begin with, that’s what comes to mind for me. I can’t speak for Marty, but perhaps he is experiencing the same thing.
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 04 Jun 2022, 05:21
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Hello experts,

chose B over E,

1. first thing which occured to me while I was reading the original choice was "goal to reduce" vs "goal of reducing"; "to reduce" looked better as it shows the intention what exactly tourism commision wanted to do. Isn't "to reduce" is better than E?

2. ultimate goal vs goal to ultimately-
when I read ultimately, as a non native, I get comfortable when I see it as final or finally. The tourism commission has conducted surveys -
(B)- they have a final goal to reduce certain type of guests. vs (E) They have a goal to finally reduce as if they have been trying for so long and finally want to reduce certain type of guests-

both choices convey logical meaning, both could be correct, how can we choose when there are no other errors except meaning, even though both meanings make sense ?
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 30 Jun 2022, 14:39
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adyg14
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Can you please help me with concepts of Subject verb agreement for this question?
Is their any rule to decide whether to use singular or plural with "The number of" ?

I am confused with SV agreement in the question below. It follows a different rule.

The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most popular resorts, with the ultimate goal of reducing the guests who end up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the service in the hotels.

(A) with the ultimate goal of reducing the guests who end up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the service in the hotels

(B) with the goal to ultimately reduce the number of guests who end up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service

(C) ultimately with the goal to reduce expressions of overall dissatisfaction by the guests with the hotel service

(D) in an ultimate attempt to reduce the number of guests that ends up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service

(E) with the ultimate goal of reducing the number of guests who express overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service
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This question was posted in another thread. Adding it here in case it helps anybody.

Keep in mind that it's the guests who express dissatisfaction, not the number. (Numbers don't have feelings, right?) So "the number" doesn't actually have a verb, and we don't need to worry about whether it's singular or plural!

We elaborated on this point earlier in the thread: https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-tourism- ... l#p2913818. Check it out, adyg14, and let us know if you still have questions!
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 01 Jul 2022, 05:28
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dcoolguy
Hello experts,

chose B over E,

1. first thing which occured to me while I was reading the original choice was "goal to reduce" vs "goal of reducing"; "to reduce" looked better as it shows the intention what exactly tourism commision wanted to do. Isn't "to reduce" is better than E?

2. ultimate goal vs goal to ultimately-
when I read ultimately, as a non native, I get comfortable when I see it as final or finally. The tourism commission has conducted surveys -
(B)- they have a final goal to reduce certain type of guests. vs (E) They have a goal to finally reduce as if they have been trying for so long and finally want to reduce certain type of guests-

both choices convey logical meaning, both could be correct, how can we choose when there are no other errors except meaning, even though both meanings make sense ?
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Hello dcoolguy,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, Option B actually alters the meaning of the sentence through the phrase "goal to ultimately reduce"; the construction of this phrase incorrectly implies that the goal of the tourism commission is to ultimately, or eventually, reduce the number of guests who express overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service; the intended meaning is that the ultimate, or final goal of the tourism commission is to reduce the number of guests who express overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service. Further, Option B incorrectly uses the unidiomatic construction "goal + to" rather than the idiomatic construction "goal + of"; please remember, when "goal" is part of a noun phrase, "goal + of" is the correct, idiomatic construction. Additionally, Option B uses the needlessly wordy phrase "end up expressing", leading to awkwardness and redundancy.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 29 Aug 2022, 09:43
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for option B, Why can ultimately not be used before reduce? (comparing B and E)
Hi siddreal, this is because in the original sentence, ultimate modifies goal (implying that the end-goal of surveys is to reduce dissatisfied guests).

B slightly changes the meaning, since ultimately modifies reduce in B (and not goal, as is the intent of the original sentence)

Hi EducationAisle - option A always has the intended meaning.

Between ultimate vs. ultimately -- why is ultimate goal prefered over ulimately reduce
Option (A) does have any intended meaning. The idea that the original version has some kind of special "intended meaning" is a myth. The correct version has simply to effectively convey a meaning that makes sense, not some special meaning also conveyed by the original version.

"Ultimate goal" plays a logical role in the sentence's describing the end goal of the Tourism Commission.

"Ultimately reduce" is not quite logical. What exactly is ultimately reducing something? "We want to ultimately reduce X," isn't really logical.
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Hi MartyTargetTestPrep, what are your thoughts on the sentences below?

I'm going to quote a bunch of newspapers, including NYT since we know, once in a while, GMAC uses NYT's articles to come up with SC questions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/busi ... loans.html:
"IT plans to ultimately reduce its exposure to these loans further, though the bank is reluctant to sell right now since prices for these companies' debt are depressed."

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/business/29rim.html:
"It said it expected the options review to ultimately reduce its net earnings since 1997, when it became publicly traded, by $25 million to $45 million ."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/glaxos-kar ... 1512502700
"The goal is to ultimately reduce the time it takes to train workers and increase the time the machines are up and running"

"The French government agreed last December to ultimately reduce its EADS stake to 12 per cent, and, in the meantime, that Paris would not exercise voting rights over 3 per cent of the company’s stock."
https://www.ft.com/content/16624d80-a5b ... 144feabdc0

"The clear intention is to ultimately reduce the prevalence of parent-child listings, which are rarely seen in developed markets outside of Japan."
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Vordhosbn

Very interesting finds. I do sometimes find some interesting grammar errors in the NYT, but it seems clear that they're accepting this usage (or at least, that their copy editors don't have this issue on their radar). That doesn't mean that it would fly on the GMAT, but notice that most of these cases fit the meaning I suggested above for this construction. They are talking about something that is expected or planned for later, but NOT for now. I still don't love it, but that's how I'd read that construction.
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(D) in an ultimate attempt to reduce the number of guests that ends up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service.

Many answers reject Option D) - Quoting 'guests' as Plural Subject & 'ends up' as Singular Verb. But Isn't the subject here 'the number of guests' which is actually a Singular subject ? which means 'ends up' is the right form of the verb.
e.g the number of men is increasing.
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AshwinthS
(D) in an ultimate attempt to reduce the number of guests that ends up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service.

Many answers reject Option D) - Quoting 'guests' as Plural Subject & 'ends up' as Singular Verb. But Isn't the subject here 'the number of guests' which is actually a Singular subject ? which means 'ends up' is the right form of the verb.
e.g the number of men is increasing.
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Hey AshwinthS

Yes, that is correct. "ends up" is singular and so agrees with the singular subject/noun "number". That's spot on. However, isn't that illogical? Does a "number" end up expressing dissatisfaction? Or do "guests" express dissatisfaction?

Obviously a number does not express dissatisfaction. This is why we need a plural verb in the dependent clause "end up" so that its subject "that/who" also becomes plural and refers back to the plural noun "guests" and not the singular noun "number".

I hope this helps.

Happy Learning!

Abhishek
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AshwinthS
(D) in an ultimate attempt to reduce the number of guests that ends up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service.

Many answers reject Option D) - Quoting 'guests' as Plural Subject & 'ends up' as Singular Verb. But Isn't the subject here 'the number of guests' which is actually a Singular subject ? which means 'ends up' is the right form of the verb.
e.g the number of men is increasing.
Show more

Hello AshwinthS,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, here the noun that takes the verb "end up" is "guests" rather than "number" because it makes no logical sense to say that a "number" expressed dissatisfaction.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most Updated on: 29 Dec 2022, 09:09
Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 29 Dec 2022, 06:55.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 29 Dec 2022, 09:09, edited 21 times in total.
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Hi GMATNinja avigutman - 2nd attempt - i chose (c) over (e) :(

The biggest issue I see with (E) is that (E) is not realistic

No tourism survey is conducted with the ultimate goal of reducing the number of guests [who happen to post Negative Yelp Reviews] .

In tourism - the desire will be to "flip" the same guest who posted negative yelp reviews to the same guest, posting positive yelp reviews. That is why you take feedback from the guest !

Think of it as teeter totter. No one wants to reduce the number of guests who post negative reviews, thereby increasing my average.

I want to 'flip' guests ultimately from posting negative review to posting positive reviews. [MUCH MUCH BETTER STRATEGY]

Reducing the number of Negative yelp reviews is what (c) is referring to.

I understand that (C) doesn't have the word "number" in the phrase " "reduce expressions of overall dissatisfaction" " -- but frankly, [Number] is implied

No one can read the phrase "reduce expressions of overall dissatisfaction" in (C) and get the impression that, one is trying to shrink the size of Negative Yelp Reviews
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Tourism Commission

(A) Meaning (reducing the guests)
(B) Modifier / Meaning (ultimately); Idiom (goal to reduce)
(C) Modifier (with the hotel service); Idiom (goal to reduce)
(D) Modifier / Meaning (ultimate); Subject-Verb (guests that ends up)
(E) CORRECT


First glance

Most of the choices begin with prepositions (with, in); in the case of choice (C), just one word (ultimately) precedes a preposition (with). The problem is testing something related to Modifiers.


Issues

(1) Meaning: reducing the guests

Modifier / Meaning: ultimately; ultimate

The original sentence says that the commission conducted surveys in order to reduce the guests. Literally, this means to reduce the size of the guests. Perhaps they’ve invented an incredible shrinking ray gun?

Probably not—this meaning is illogical. Presumably, the goal was to reduce the number of guests or the number of complaints. Eliminate choice (A) for faulty meaning.

While examining the first issue, you might spot another one. The original sentence describes the ultimate goal of the surveys. Other choices move this word around or change the form to ultimate. Check them for proper placement and meaning.

(A) with the ultimate goal
(B) with the goal to ultimately reduce
(C) ultimately with the goal
(D) in an ultimate attempt
(E) with the ultimate goal

An ultimate goal is a decisive or final goal; this meaning makes logical sense for the sentence. Nothing indicates, however, that this is the final attempt to achieve the goal; why wouldn't the commission be able to keep trying? Eliminate (D) for an unlikely meaning.

Choice (B) changes the form to ultimately (an adverb) and places it with the verb to reduce. The goal is not to finally reduce the number of guests. Rather, the surveys have a final or ultimate goal. Eliminate choice (B).

(2) Idiom: goal to reduce

Two choices say with the goal of reducing, while two others say with the goal to reduce. (The fifth removes this structure entirely.) Eliminate choices (B) and (C).

The correct idiom is with the goal of (doing something).

(3) Modifier: with the hotel service

Four of the choices talk about dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service (or with the service in hotels). In choice (C), though, the modifier moves:

(c)...... overall dissatisfaction by the guests with the hotel service

Prepositional phrases can modify nouns or verbs. If a prepositional phrase begins just after a noun, the general expectation is that it is modifying that noun. In this case, then, with the hotel service would be modifying guests—but the point of the sentence is not to discuss the guests with the hotel service. All of the relevant guests stayed in hotels. The point is to call out those guests who are dissatisfied with the hotel service. Eliminate answer (C) for faulty modifier placement leading to illogical meaning.

(4) Subject-Verb: guests that ends up

Choice (D) uses the construction reduce the number of guests that ends up expressing … dissatisfaction.. The plural guests express dissatisfaction, so they end up expressing dissatisfaction. The singular verb ends does not match with the plural subject guests. Eliminate choice (D).

The Correct Answer

Correct answer (E) conveys a logical meaning throughout: the surveys have an ultimate, or final, goal; the goal is to reduce the number of guests; those guests express … dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service.
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sayantanc2k
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Hi Experts,

I wish to understand what's wrong in option B compared to E.

(B) The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most popular resorts, with the goal to ultimately reduce the number of guests who end up expressing overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service

(E) The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most popular resorts, with the ultimate goal of reducing the number of guests who express overall dissatisfaction with the hotels’ service


Scientists have solved many puzzles of nature, with the goal to understand the earth better
Scientists have solved many puzzles of nature, with the goal of understanding the earth better

I think the former makes more sense because "to" has an intention connotation that is lacking in "for verb-ing". Or, is there a problem with "ultimate" in the above sentence?

"who express" is, of course, much cleaner than "who end up expressing"

The goal is not to ultimately reduce the numbers. It would be better if the commission could reduce the numbers now than if it reduces "ultimately". However the goal itself is ultimate (i.e. the final goal). Therefore placement of ultimately is wrong in option B.
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Above statement (in my view( is the best way to differentiate between ultimately vs ultimate

Analogy
(1) My goal is to ultimately lose weight
vs
(2) My ultimate goal is to lose weight

(1) It implies, this is not my goal AT THIS VERY MOMENT. In the future (6 weeks or 5 years from now) -- losing weight is my goal. What then after ? Once I lose weight (5 years from now) -- is that the end ? maybe or maybe not ..losing weight could be one part of the PENULTIMATE GOAL. Maybe my penultimate goal is to fit into my school jeans. Losing weight is one aspect but other goals have to be done also in order to fit into my high school jeans (sewing the buttons or repairing the torn holes in my jeans...)

vs

(2) my ultimate goal is weight loss. When ? hopefully now but even if later, that is fine...that is my ultimate goal. i dont have any other goal beyond this. Once i achieve this goal -- i am done.
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 02 Jan 2023, 16:44
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jabhatta2
Hi GMATNinja avigutman - 2nd attempt - i chose (c) over (e) :(

The biggest issue I see with (E) is that (E) is not realistic

No tourism survey is conducted with the ultimate goal of reducing the number of guests [who happen to post Negative Yelp Reviews] .

In tourism - the desire will be to "flip" the same guest who posted negative yelp reviews to the same guest, posting positive yelp reviews. That is why you take feedback from the guest !

Think of it as teeter totter. No one wants to reduce the number of guests who post negative reviews, thereby increasing my average.

I want to 'flip' guests ultimately from posting negative review to posting positive reviews. [MUCH MUCH BETTER STRATEGY]

Reducing the number of Negative yelp reviews is what (c) is referring to.
Show more
Firstly, jabhatta2, all five answer choices postulate that the commission's goal is to reduce the number of dissatisfied guests. There's not much of a difference between the number of guests who express dissatisfaction and the number of expressions of dissatisfaction (unless we assume that one guest might contribute multiple expressions of dissatisfaction, but I see no reason to make that assumption).
Secondly, no tourism survey was conducted. Rather, the commission has conducted surveys of hotels (not surveys of guests... surveys of hotels).
If a tourism commission's mandate is to make a certain region appear more attractive to prospective tourists, it makes total sense that the commission would wish to minimize the expressions of dissatisfaction with the region's hotels.
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 17 Jul 2023, 19:20
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Hey, you know what, some people are expressing dissatisfaction, let's reduce their numbers. Only allow those people who are bound to give good feedback.
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 01 Jan 2024, 09:42
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In option D, I read many comments stating "the number of guests" has "guests" plural subject hence we need to use "express", but isnt "the number" singular?
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 01 Jan 2024, 22:23
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anikpait17
In option D, I read many comments stating "the number of guests" has "guests" plural subject hence we need to use "express", but isnt "the number" singular?
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Hi anikpait17,

Keep in mind that there's a that there. With this kind of that (relative pronoun), we need to keep the intended meaning in mind when we're trying to decide what that that points to.

1. The number of guests that ends up expressing dissatisfaction... ← This tells us that the number (singular) ends up (singular) expressing dissatisfaction, which is unlikely to be the intended meaning (how can a number express dissatisfaction?).

2. The number of guests who end up expressing dissatisfaction... ← We read this as "the number of {guests who end up expressing dissatisfaction}". Guests and end up are both plural.
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The tourism commission has conducted surveys of hotels in the most 13 Jan 2024, 11:48
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Though I am not very convinced about the usage of 'with' here. Going by the rule, 'with' should modify resorts here.

Can anyone explain what is the rule and why the usuage is correct here?
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