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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 26 Jan 2022, 14:49
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Thanks a lot for your quick response.

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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 22 Feb 2022, 19:34
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GMATNinja, in option D, " it expands..." refers to the slime which distorts the meaning. It should refer back to hagfish as it does in option E. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?
It doesn't make sense for "it" to refer to "hagfish" -- it's not the hagfish that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater. Rather, it's the slime that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater.

Remember, as explained in this post, there is nothing special about the meaning in choice (A)!
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GMATNinja
IMHO, "It" can refer back to hagfish.
"...,it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater, forming a slime ball....", as the antecedent of "it" is performing the action of "forming a slime ball". Request you to please let me know if there's a flaw in my understanding.

Thanks.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 24 Feb 2022, 07:04
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NareshGargMBA
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GMATNinja, in option D, " it expands..." refers to the slime which distorts the meaning. It should refer back to hagfish as it does in option E. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?
It doesn't make sense for "it" to refer to "hagfish" -- it's not the hagfish that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater. Rather, it's the slime that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater.

Remember, as explained in this post, there is nothing special about the meaning in choice (A)!

GMATNinja
IMHO, "It" can refer back to hagfish.
"...,it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater, forming a slime ball....", as the antecedent of "it" is performing the action of "forming a slime ball". Request you to please let me know if there's a flaw in my understanding.

Thanks.
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Hello NareshGargMBA,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, this reasoning is not really correct, as the hagfish is not actually taking the action of forming a slime ball; the hagfish produces the slime, and the slime then forms into a ball on its own.

More importantly, the non-underlined portion of the sentence clearly uses "it" to refer to "slime" in the clause "it expands several hundred times"; this means that the underlined portion cannot use "it" to refer to "hagfish", as a pronoun can only have one referent in any given sentence.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 24 Feb 2022, 16:57
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NareshGargMBA
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GMATNinja, in option D, " it expands..." refers to the slime which distorts the meaning. It should refer back to hagfish as it does in option E. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?
It doesn't make sense for "it" to refer to "hagfish" -- it's not the hagfish that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater. Rather, it's the slime that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater.

Remember, as explained in this post, there is nothing special about the meaning in choice (A)!

GMATNinja
IMHO, "It" can refer back to hagfish.
"...,it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater, forming a slime ball....", as the antecedent of "it" is performing the action of "forming a slime ball". Request you to please let me know if there's a flaw in my understanding.

Thanks.
Show more
The word "although" is the key here.

As explained in this post, we're looking for a logical contrast between the two clauses. If the "it" refers to "hagfish" in (D), then we'd have this:

    "Although the slime {...} is small in quantity, [the hagfish] expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater."

But in that case, the "although" doesn't really make sense. There's no logical contrast between (1) the slime being small in quantity and (2) the hagfish expanding several hundred times as it absorbs seawater.

Also, the "forming" part doesn't make as much sense if "hagfish" is the thing that's absorbing seawater and expanding:

  • We're told that the threatened hagfish excretes a small quantity of slime.
  • If it's the hagfish that's absorbing seawater and expanding, then the slime is NOT absorbing water and expanding -- it's just sitting out there in the ocean as a small quantity of slime.
  • Does that mean that the hagfish (1) excretes a small quantity of slime that floats around uselessly in the ocean and then (2) starts forming some other new slime ball (that has nothing to do with the small quantity of slime already excreted)? What exactly does the expanding of the hagfish have to do with the formation of the slime ball? We could come up with some theories, but, at best, the meaning is unclear if we go with that interpretation.

It makes much more sense to assume that the slime itself forms a slime ball as it absorbs seawater and expands. The structure of (D) lends itself to this logical interpretation: the reader naturally expects the pronoun (the subject of second clause) to refer back to the subject of the first clause, so the intended meaning is perfectly clear.

I hope that helps!
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 08 Mar 2022, 01:40
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Although when a hagfish is threatened, it will secrete slime that is small in quantity, it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater, forming a slime ball that can coat the gills of predatory fish and either suffocate them or distress them enough to make them flee.

How do you decide whether the "it" after the underlined portion refers to the hagfish or slime? Logically, it should be slime because a fish may puff up when threatened (Puffer fish) but cannot expand several hundred times. On the other hand, slime can.
Grammatically, "it" should refer to slime. Here is how.
", forming" is a participle that refers back to the "it" that we are talking about.
If "it" refers to the hagfish, then the sentence would say
The hagfish expands ...., forming a slime ball..
OKAY

If "it" refers to the slime, then the sentence would say
The slime expands ...., forming a slime ball..
Makes more sense.

So, "it" should refer to Slime and not hagfish.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 12 Mar 2022, 05:25
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I have a question. I have read many replies and I understand that "it" or other pronouns usually refer back to the closet noun. but in this context, "it" must refer to subject because it is independent clause, right?
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 12 Mar 2022, 11:10
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Tanchat
I have a question. I have read many replies and I understand that "it" or other pronouns usually refer back to the closet noun. but in this context, "it" must refer to subject because it is independent clause, right?
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There is no such a rule that a pronoun replaces the closest noun. The rules of which noun a pronoun replaces get a little bit 'wild west.' As far as I can tell, so long as the noun is in the sentence, it is viable to be the antecedent of a pronoun.

But the GMAT is relatively consistent about the pronoun of a clause after a subordinate clause matching the subject. That is definitely the preference, and is considered less ambiguous.

Here is my lesson on pronouns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTxL-csJR-M

They are one of my *least* favorite subjects in SC, because their rules are so sloppy.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 13 Mar 2022, 00:56
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I have a question. I have read many replies and I understand that "it" or other pronouns usually refer back to the closet noun. but in this context, "it" must refer to subject because it is independent clause, right?

There is no such a rule that a pronoun replaces the closest noun. The rules of which noun a pronoun replaces get a little bit 'wild west.' As far as I can tell, so long as the noun is in the sentence, it is viable to be the antecedent of a pronoun.

But the GMAT is relatively consistent about the pronoun of a clause after a subordinate clause matching the subject. That is definitely the preference, and is considered less ambiguous.

Here is my lesson on pronouns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTxL-csJR-M

They are one of my *least* favorite subjects in SC, because their rules are so sloppy.
Show more


Thank you for your response,

I understand that there is no absolute rule for GMAT. However, is there preference that can lessen ambiguous or we can only interpret.

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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 09 Jun 2022, 12:04
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Although when a hagfish is threatened, it will secrete slime that is small in quantity, it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater, forming a slime ball that can coat the gills of predatory fish and either suffocate them or distress them enough to make them flee.

A) Although when a hagfish is threatened, it will secrete slime that is small in quantity,

B) Although a small quantity of slime is secreted by the hagfish, when threatened

C) Although, when threatened, a hagfish will secrete slime that is small in quantity,

D) Although the slime secreted by a threatened hagfish is small in quantity,

E) Although the hagfish secretes a small quantity of slime when threatened,

SC22260.02
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I think this question is testing how well a candidate can spot the intended meaning of the sentence. The sentence intends to communicate a comparison between the sizes of the slime secreted by the hagfish. From the sentence you can note that the size/quantity of the slime is initially small, but the slime grows in size. The only choice that communicates the comparison accurately is choice D. Of course choice B also compares quantities of the slime. But choice B has a glaring meaning error because the choice seems to convey that the slime expands when the hagfish is threatened. The slime grows by virtue of the seawater and not when the hagfish is threatened.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s Updated on: 03 Jan 2023, 17:19
Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 03 Jan 2023, 14:41.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 03 Jan 2023, 17:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Hi GMATNinja AnthonyRitz GMATNinjaTwo zhanbo ReedArnoldMPREP GMATNinja avigutman - wanted to ask about the structure Although X, Y in (A), (b), (C) and (e)

In (A)

Quote:
Is "when a hagfish is threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

Quote:
For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (A)

X clause : when a hagfish is threatened, it will secrete slime that is small in quantity
Y clause : it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater
Show more

In (B)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded with the Y clause only ?

Thus the X clause, in (B), is referring to a situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

Quote:
For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (B)
X clause : a small quantity of slime is secreted by the hagfish
Y clause : when threatened it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater
Show more

In (C)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

Quote:
For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (C)
[X clause] : when threatened, a hagfish will secrete slime that is small in quantity
[Y clause] : it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater
Show more

In (E)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

Quote:
For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (E)
[X clause] : the hagfish secretes a small quantity of slime when threatened
[Y clause] : it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater when threatened
Show more
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jan 2023, 15:56
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Hi GMATNinja AnthonyRitz GMATNinjaTwo zhanbo ReedArnoldMPREP GMATNinja - wanted to ask about the structure Although X, Y

In (A)

Quote:
Is "when a hagfish is threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (A)

X clause : when a hagfish is threatened, it will secrete slime that is small in quantity
Y clause : it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater

In (B)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded with the Y clause only ?

Thus the X clause, in (B), is referring to a situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (B)
X clause : a small quantity of slime is secreted by the hagfish
Y clause : when threatened it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater

In (C)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?

For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (C)
[X clause] : when threatened, a hagfish will secrete slime that is small in quantity
[Y clause] : it expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater

In (E)

Quote:
Is "when threatened" embedded within the X clause only ?

Thus the Y clause is referring to situation wherein which - the hagfish is NOT threatened ?


For reference, this is my split of the [X clause] vs the [Y clause] in (E)
Show more


Hello jabhatta2,

I will be glad to help you with this one. :)

Yes, your understanding of which part of the sentence "when threatened" is included is correct. However, I am not sure why you say that the "Y clause" in the "Although X, Y" structure, the situation of the hagfish not threatened will be presented. The structure "Although X, Y" simply presents two pieces of information that contrast with each other. In this sentence, the intended contrast is that although a small amount of slime is secreted, this small amount of slime turns into a slime ball. The phrase "when threatened" only presents a condition when the hagfish secretes the slime.


Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jan 2023, 16:19
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egmat

Yes, your understanding of which part of the sentence "when threatened" is included is correct. However, I am not sure why you say that the "Y clause" in the "Although X, Y" structure, the situation of the hagfish not threatened will be presented.

The structure "Although X, Y" simply presents two pieces of information that contrast with each other. In this sentence, the intended contrast is that although a small amount of slime is secreted, this small amount of slime turns into a slime ball. The phrase "when threatened" only presents a condition when the hagfish secretes the slime.


Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
Show more

Hi egmat GMATNinja AnthonyRitz GMATNinjaTwo zhanbo ReedArnoldMPREP GMATNinja avigutman -

In (A) - the reason i say "when threatened" only applies to the [X clause] and not the [Y clause] is the following simple example :

Quote:
Although John was very adventurous prior to marriage, John is lazy after marriage
Show more

In this sentence, the usage of word "although" contrasts between a time "prior to marriage" and a time "after marriage"

Now In (A), (B), (C) and (e) -- if "when threatened" only applies to 1 CLAUSE and not the other clause --

then the contrast is between a time "When threatened" and a time "When NOT threatened"

Hence i thought (A), (B), (C) and (e) was contrasting between a time "When threatened" vs a time "when NOT threatened"

Not the intended meaning.

Hence i eliminated (A), (B), (C) and (e). Fair ?
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jan 2023, 16:38
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jabhatta2

Hi egmat GMATNinja AnthonyRitz GMATNinjaTwo zhanbo ReedArnoldMPREP GMATNinja avigutman -

In (A) - the reason i say "when threatened" only applies to the [X clause] and not the [Y clause] is the following simple example :

Quote:
Although John was very adventurous prior to marriage, John is lazy after marriage

In this sentence, the usage of word "although" contrasts between a time "prior to marriage" and a time "after marriage"

Now In (A), (B), (C) and (e) -- if "when threatened" only applies to 1 CLAUSE and not the other clause --

then the contrast is between a time "When threatened" and a time "When NOT threatened"

Hence i thought (A), (B), (C) and (e) was contrasting between a time "When threatened" vs a time "when NOT threatened"

Not the intended meaning.

Hence i eliminated (A), (B), (C) and (e). Fair ?
Show more


Hello jabhatta2,

Your example sentence clearly mentions the two points of contrast - before marriage and after marriage. But that is not the case with our official sentence. We must understand the intended contrats in the snetence. As i have already explained. the point of contrast in the official sentence is that although a small quantity of slime is secreted by the hagfish, that small quantity turns into a slime ball. This is the point of contrast in this official sentence. "When threatened" only presents the time when the hagfish secretes the slime.


Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jan 2023, 17:16
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Your example sentence clearly mentions the two points of contrast - before marriage and after marriage. But that is not the case with our official sentence. We must understand the intended contrats in the snetence. As i have already explained. the point of contrast in the official sentence is that although a small quantity of slime is secreted by the hagfish, that small quantity turns into a slime ball. This is the point of contrast in this official sentence. "When threatened" only presents the time when the hagfish secretes the slime.
Show more

Hi egmat : Just to crystalize my understanding : In (e) -- we know, the adverb "when threatened" is logically referring to the verb "Secretes"

Question -

In (E) -
(i) Is the [Y clause] taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?
OR
(ii) Is the [Y clause] not necessarily taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?

I think, all we can say is the [Y clause] is taking place at the same time as another time frame, namely, "as it absorbs seawater".

Perhaps, the [Y clause] may not be taking place at the same time as "When threatened"
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jan 2023, 18:13
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jabhatta2
Just to crystallize my understanding : In (e) -- we know, the adverb "when threatened" is logically referring to the verb "Secretes"

Question -

In (E) -
(i) Is the [Y clause] taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?
OR
(ii) Is the [Y clause] not necessarily taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?

I think, all we can say is the [Y clause] is taking place at the same time as another time frame, namely, "as it absorbs seawater".

Perhaps, the [Y clause] may not be taking place at the same time as "When threatened"
Show more
My take on this, jabhatta2, is that we don't know. I wouldn't eliminate ABCE for that reason. I would just focus on the pronoun at the start of the underline, figure out that the appropriate antecedent is slime (not hagfish), and use that + logic to pick D.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s Updated on: 03 Jan 2023, 21:54
Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 03 Jan 2023, 20:32.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 03 Jan 2023, 21:54, edited 20 times in total.
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Thank you avigutman - Some theory on my understanding of the structure : Although X, Y and then my question :)

Background : In the structure [Although Subject – Verb, Subject – Verb]

My understanding :: The Subject of 2nd clause NEED not be always be the same as the Subject of first clause

Official example 1 :

Quote:
GMAT official example HERE - in this case, subject of 2nd clause IS NOT the subject of the 1st clause. This official example also starts off with the usage "Despite"
Show more


Example 2 - A simple example
Quote:

Although dogs kill man eating hyenas, humans foolishly killed off all the dogs in the 1920's.
Source : myself
Show more

Here too - the 2nd subject (Humans) IS NOT THE SAME as 1st subject (Dogs)

----------------------------

Question :
Thus when reading (C) and (E), I replaced the non-underlined "IT = Slime" based on meaning (because Hagfishes obviously CANNOT form a slimeball)

Quote:
option C) Although, when threatened, a hagfish will secrete slime that is small in quantity, slime [=IT] expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater
Show more

Quote:
option E) Although the hagfish secretes a small quantity of slime when threatened, slime [=IT] expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater
Show more

Once you do this, you cannot apply the strategy you mention here to eliminate (C) and (E)
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 04 Jan 2023, 13:40
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jabhatta2

Hi egmat : Just to crystalize my understanding : In (e) -- we know, the adverb "when threatened" is logically referring to the verb "Secretes"

Question -

In (E) -
(i) Is the [Y clause] taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?
OR
(ii) Is the [Y clause] not necessarily taking place at the same time as "When threatened" ?

I think, all we can say is the [Y clause] is taking place at the same time as another time frame, namely, "as it absorbs seawater".

Perhaps, the [Y clause] may not be taking place at the same time as "When threatened"
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Hello jabhatta2,

Thank you for the follow-up question. :)

Well, the sentence clearly says that the hagfish secretes a small quantity of slime when it is threatened. Whether it continues to feel threatened after secreting the slime is not mentioned in the sentence. However, this is NOT the focal point of the sentence. The focal point of the sentence is that the small amount of slime secreted by the hagfish absorbs seawater and turns into a slimeball. The sentence presents the defense mechanism of the hagfish.


Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 04 Jan 2023, 14:04
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jabhatta2
Thank you avigutman - Some theory on my understanding of the structure : Although X, Y and then my question :)

Background : In the structure [Although Subject – Verb, Subject – Verb]

My understanding :: The Subject of 2nd clause NEED not be always be the same as the Subject of first clause
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Your understanding is correct, jabhatta2.
jabhatta2
Official example 1 :

Quote:
GMAT official example HERE - in this case, subject of 2nd clause IS NOT the subject of the 1st clause. This official example also starts off with the usage "Despite"
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This example is irrelevant. It doesn't have two clauses. In the construction Despite x, y, x is not a clause, and therefore doesn't have a subject.

jabhatta2
Example 2 - A simple example
Quote:

Although dogs kill man eating hyenas, humans foolishly killed off all the dogs in the 1920's.
Source : myself

Here too - the 2nd subject (Humans) IS NOT THE SAME as 1st subject (Dogs)
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Good example, but it doesn't have any pronouns. How would you feel about this sentence, jabhatta2?
Quote:
Although man eating hyenas are killed by dogs, they were foolishly killed by humans in the 1920's.
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jabhatta2
----------------------------

Question :
Thus when reading (C) and (E), I replaced the non-underlined "IT = Slime" based on meaning (because Hagfishes obviously CANNOT form a slimeball)

Quote:
option C) Although, when threatened, a hagfish will secrete slime that is small in quantity, slime [=IT] expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater

Quote:
option E) Although the hagfish secretes a small quantity of slime when threatened, slime [=IT] expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater

Once you do this, you cannot apply the strategy you mention here to eliminate (C) and (E)
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I thought AndrewN did a great job of explaining my point here.
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 22 May 2023, 19:25
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GMATNinja, in option D, " it expands..." refers to the slime which distorts the meaning. It should refer back to hagfish as it does in option E. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?
It doesn't make sense for "it" to refer to "hagfish" -- it's not the hagfish that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater. Rather, it's the slime that expands several hundred times as it absorbs seawater.

Remember, as explained in this post, there is nothing special about the meaning in choice (A)!
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Also if it is the hagfish that expands, then why talk about the slime at all? It makes no sense to just mention that hagfish will secrete slime and then just move on to talk about how the hagfish expands. Good question this nevertheless!
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Although when a hagfish is threatened it will secrete slime that is s 03 Jun 2023, 06:32
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Hi,
I was confused between B and D, but chose B. I can now see that the modifier in B is incorrect, but what threw me off about D was 'threated hagfish' as a replacement for 'when a hagfish is threatened'.
Do both of these mean the same?
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