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26 Jan 2021, 11:53
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Hi guys!
I have been closely following the fortunes of R1 applicants through GMAT Club. An observation that I have been able to make is the relative number (or lack thereof) of applicants securing admits through the GRE. While I realise that there is a lot more to a candidature than just the test score, this has been troubling me for sometime. I would love to know your thoughts on the following queries:
1. Do you think if applying with the GRE would put an applicant at a disadvantage? I feel more comfortable with the GRE's verbal section than that of the GMAT's( I find that vocabulary comes more naturally to me than does grammar. This makes me perform better on the GRE's Text Completion and Sentence Equivalence and makes me struggle on the GMAT's Sentence Correction) and consequently makes me feel that I can score much better on the GRE.
Since GRE numbers don't influence "B-School rankings", I was wondering if candidates applying with the GMAT( especially if they hail from an over-represented background such as the Male Indian Engineer) are "preferred" to those applying with the GRE. Additionally, there seems to be a vast difference between the reported averages of the GRE and GMAT scores for a given school (For eg, Kellogg and Haas report an average GRE of 326 which translates to 690 on the GMAT. The average reported GMAT at Kellogg and Haas is 727).
2. I have hardly seen any applicants(more so internationals) who have applied with the GRE scores bag scholarships. Would this be an accurate observation? Hailing from India, an international MBA would prove very expensive and offsetting tuition amount through scholarships becomes extremely vital. I see that GMAT scores of 740+ along with a well compiled application bolsters the chances for scholarship awards for Indian candidates. Do you think a GRE equivalent of 750( along with a well compiled application) would also expose a candidate to similar chances of scholarships?
I realise that answers can vary with schools and be very subjective. But, I would nonetheless, be extremely grateful for any input that you might have in this regard. It would definitely help me take a more measured decision in picking the appropriate test for my applications in R1 of 2021.
bb carcass Nikhil variantguy GMATNinja anybody else could you please provide your thoughts on this?
Posted from my mobile device
I have been closely following the fortunes of R1 applicants through GMAT Club. An observation that I have been able to make is the relative number (or lack thereof) of applicants securing admits through the GRE. While I realise that there is a lot more to a candidature than just the test score, this has been troubling me for sometime. I would love to know your thoughts on the following queries:
1. Do you think if applying with the GRE would put an applicant at a disadvantage? I feel more comfortable with the GRE's verbal section than that of the GMAT's( I find that vocabulary comes more naturally to me than does grammar. This makes me perform better on the GRE's Text Completion and Sentence Equivalence and makes me struggle on the GMAT's Sentence Correction) and consequently makes me feel that I can score much better on the GRE.
Since GRE numbers don't influence "B-School rankings", I was wondering if candidates applying with the GMAT( especially if they hail from an over-represented background such as the Male Indian Engineer) are "preferred" to those applying with the GRE. Additionally, there seems to be a vast difference between the reported averages of the GRE and GMAT scores for a given school (For eg, Kellogg and Haas report an average GRE of 326 which translates to 690 on the GMAT. The average reported GMAT at Kellogg and Haas is 727).
2. I have hardly seen any applicants(more so internationals) who have applied with the GRE scores bag scholarships. Would this be an accurate observation? Hailing from India, an international MBA would prove very expensive and offsetting tuition amount through scholarships becomes extremely vital. I see that GMAT scores of 740+ along with a well compiled application bolsters the chances for scholarship awards for Indian candidates. Do you think a GRE equivalent of 750( along with a well compiled application) would also expose a candidate to similar chances of scholarships?
I realise that answers can vary with schools and be very subjective. But, I would nonetheless, be extremely grateful for any input that you might have in this regard. It would definitely help me take a more measured decision in picking the appropriate test for my applications in R1 of 2021.
bb carcass Nikhil variantguy GMATNinja anybody else could you please provide your thoughts on this?
Posted from my mobile device
26 Jan 2021, 13:00
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I don't know that you'll learn anything terribly new from it, but it might be worth checking out this video. The guy talking in the video annoys me, but I do agree with his point of view. 
You won't like this next part.
The video doesn't address the scholarship question at all, but I would think of it this way: what's the incentive for MBA programs to give scholarship money to somebody from your background? Sadly, it wouldn't be because they lack applicants with similar profiles. The only reason would be because you're doing something to help out their rankings -- and that would probably require an outrageous GMAT score, and the GRE probably wouldn't be as helpful. But even then, the super-elite MBA programs aren't struggling to recruit Indians with really high GMAT scores, so the scholarship hunt is likely to be an uphill battle unless you're shooting for some less-selective programs.
I know: crappy answer. But it kind of leads me to the same conclusion as you'll see in the video: if you can get a crazy-elite GMAT score (740-780), take the GMAT. If you can't, try the GRE. I don't think the scholarship question changes any of that at all.
If it helps at all, think of the MBA investment in terms of overall ROI. Depending on what you plan to do afterwards, what sort of earnings do you think are realistic for you over the next, say, 20-30 years? Then think about the scholarship in the context of your expected post-MBA earnings. A full-tuition scholarship is really hard to get -- and it also might represent a very small percentage of what you expect to earn with your MBA over time.
Sure, writing a check (or taking out loans) for the full tuition amount will HURT. But that number might look different if you take a much wider view of the investment. Just food for thought.
I hope that helps a bit!
You won't like this next part.
The video doesn't address the scholarship question at all, but I would think of it this way: what's the incentive for MBA programs to give scholarship money to somebody from your background? Sadly, it wouldn't be because they lack applicants with similar profiles. The only reason would be because you're doing something to help out their rankings -- and that would probably require an outrageous GMAT score, and the GRE probably wouldn't be as helpful. But even then, the super-elite MBA programs aren't struggling to recruit Indians with really high GMAT scores, so the scholarship hunt is likely to be an uphill battle unless you're shooting for some less-selective programs.
I know: crappy answer. But it kind of leads me to the same conclusion as you'll see in the video: if you can get a crazy-elite GMAT score (740-780), take the GMAT. If you can't, try the GRE. I don't think the scholarship question changes any of that at all.
If it helps at all, think of the MBA investment in terms of overall ROI. Depending on what you plan to do afterwards, what sort of earnings do you think are realistic for you over the next, say, 20-30 years? Then think about the scholarship in the context of your expected post-MBA earnings. A full-tuition scholarship is really hard to get -- and it also might represent a very small percentage of what you expect to earn with your MBA over time.
Sure, writing a check (or taking out loans) for the full tuition amount will HURT. But that number might look different if you take a much wider view of the investment. Just food for thought.
I hope that helps a bit!
variantguy
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26 Jan 2021, 23:49
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elPatron434
Before I post anything, I want to clarify that I've never taken the GRE, nor have I read any concrete research proving that the AdComs view one of these two tests as better. Most of what I'll write next is based on secondary research and anecdotal evidence, and in the end, it may not be radically new advice.
To begin with, GMAT is a test specifically for business/management graduates, whereas GRE is designed for any graduate program applicant. As such, I believe the signal sent by a great GMAT score would be stronger than that sent by an equally great GRE score.
There's a certain availability bias in favor of GMAT scores, which I'm sure you have also noticed in your research. More people applying to business schools take GMAT (85-90% admits at any T15 school submit GMAT scores, if not more), and it is easier for anyone, including AdComs, to compare apples to apples than to compare apples to oranges. I think ETS provides a GRE to GMAT score converter, but they don't really share the methodology in detail, so it's a bit murky. I'm not really sure if AdComs would put the time and effort to convert GMAT scores for every applicant who submits a GRE score; they'll mostly go by some arbitrary rubric and some mental math. As an applicant, that's a territory you want to avoid - where the AdCom makes some assumptions about any part of your application.
Moreover, both ranking publications and recruiters prefer to see GMAT for their respective purposes. This, in turn, creates an initiative (if not incentive) for AdComs to lean more towards seeing a GMAT score in the application vs. a GRE score. GMATNinja mentioned how, for example, there could be an incentive for AdComs to prefer GMAT (for both admission and scholarship considerations) because of the correlation between GMAT averages and school rankings, and from my experience, I've realized that the entire admissions process is a very fine dance of negotiation between what you get from the school and how you can contribute to the school's benefit. A higher-than-the-school-average GMAT score is definitely one of those ways. Did I mention employers prefer GMAT? It's anecdotal, but in consulting, some employers really nudge students to submit GMAT scores.
From my observations, I have seen more Indians with GMAT (and 740+ GMAT) get more scholarships. But I think that's more to do with the fact that more people submit GMAT scores, to begin with. Would those people get the same scholarships had they submitted an equivalent GRE score? We do not know. A test score can influence your scholarship dollars but it's not the only factor; the real factor is what do you bring to the table overall and how you can contribute to the school and its community, both as a student and as an alumnus.
With COVID, one thing that we never expected to happen (amongst 1000 others) is that so many schools, including some of the most elite institutions, are willing to consider applications without a GMAT OR GRE. To me, that shows flexibility and that schools have a backup plan to evaluate whatever skills they were using the test scores to evaluate. Not sure if this trend will continue in the next application cycle, but perhaps you could connect with an AdCom at one of your target schools and ask them how are they going about evaluating applicants sans a standardized test score. You may not get a super clear response, but you may get something.
Overall, if you feel that you can score well on the GMAT (in your case as an Indian engineer male, "well" means 740+), then go for GMAT. Otherwise, submitting a great GRE score is any day better than submitting a crappy GMAT score. Hope this was somewhat helpful!
Before I post anything, I want to clarify that I've never taken the GRE, nor have I read any concrete research proving that the AdComs view one of these two tests as better. Most of what I'll write next is based on secondary research and anecdotal evidence, and in the end, it may not be radically new advice.
To begin with, GMAT is a test specifically for business/management graduates, whereas GRE is designed for any graduate program applicant. As such, I believe the signal sent by a great GMAT score would be stronger than that sent by an equally great GRE score.
There's a certain availability bias in favor of GMAT scores, which I'm sure you have also noticed in your research. More people applying to business schools take GMAT (85-90% admits at any T15 school submit GMAT scores, if not more), and it is easier for anyone, including AdComs, to compare apples to apples than to compare apples to oranges. I think ETS provides a GRE to GMAT score converter, but they don't really share the methodology in detail, so it's a bit murky. I'm not really sure if AdComs would put the time and effort to convert GMAT scores for every applicant who submits a GRE score; they'll mostly go by some arbitrary rubric and some mental math. As an applicant, that's a territory you want to avoid - where the AdCom makes some assumptions about any part of your application.
Moreover, both ranking publications and recruiters prefer to see GMAT for their respective purposes. This, in turn, creates an initiative (if not incentive) for AdComs to lean more towards seeing a GMAT score in the application vs. a GRE score. GMATNinja mentioned how, for example, there could be an incentive for AdComs to prefer GMAT (for both admission and scholarship considerations) because of the correlation between GMAT averages and school rankings, and from my experience, I've realized that the entire admissions process is a very fine dance of negotiation between what you get from the school and how you can contribute to the school's benefit. A higher-than-the-school-average GMAT score is definitely one of those ways. Did I mention employers prefer GMAT? It's anecdotal, but in consulting, some employers really nudge students to submit GMAT scores.
From my observations, I have seen more Indians with GMAT (and 740+ GMAT) get more scholarships. But I think that's more to do with the fact that more people submit GMAT scores, to begin with. Would those people get the same scholarships had they submitted an equivalent GRE score? We do not know. A test score can influence your scholarship dollars but it's not the only factor; the real factor is what do you bring to the table overall and how you can contribute to the school and its community, both as a student and as an alumnus.
With COVID, one thing that we never expected to happen (amongst 1000 others) is that so many schools, including some of the most elite institutions, are willing to consider applications without a GMAT OR GRE. To me, that shows flexibility and that schools have a backup plan to evaluate whatever skills they were using the test scores to evaluate. Not sure if this trend will continue in the next application cycle, but perhaps you could connect with an AdCom at one of your target schools and ask them how are they going about evaluating applicants sans a standardized test score. You may not get a super clear response, but you may get something.
Overall, if you feel that you can score well on the GMAT (in your case as an Indian engineer male, "well" means 740+), then go for GMAT. Otherwise, submitting a great GRE score is any day better than submitting a crappy GMAT score. Hope this was somewhat helpful!
