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655-705 Level|   Meaning/Logical Predication|   Pronouns|               
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Gauravvinod92
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 10 Jul 2020, 02:46
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aalekhoza
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Australia, it was the antipodes, the opposite pole to civilization, an obscure and unimaginable place that was considered the end of the world.

(A) before Australia was Australia, it was the antipodes
(B) before there was Australia, it was the antipodes
(C) it was the antipodes that was Australia
(D) Australia was what was the antipodes
(E) Australia was what had been known as the antipodes
So, which one is "obscure and unimaginable place" here?
is it:
1/ Australia,
2/ Antipodes,
3/ The opposite pole
Thanks__

AsadAbu
I think "obscure and unimaginable place" refers to "the opposite pole", which in turn is "Antipodes" and which in turn was once "Australia" in the minds of people living in England.

BTW, I also wanted to thank you for all the efforts that you have put on the forum. Much appreciated!
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is the last sentence starting from "an obscure" is an absolute phrase. and if yes then it shall modify the civilization. I find it non-sensical. Also, in a there are two modifiers.
May you please explain a bit in more details.

Thanks
Gaurav
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 13 Jul 2021, 16:56
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Gauravvinod92


AsadAbu
I think "obscure and unimaginable place" refers to "the opposite pole", which in turn is "Antipodes" and which in turn was once "Australia" in the minds of people living in England.

BTW, I also wanted to thank you for all the efforts that you have put on the forum. Much appreciated!
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is the last sentence starting from "an obscure" is an absolute phrase. and if yes then it shall modify the civilization. I find it non-sensical. Also, in a there are two modifiers.
May you please explain a bit in more details.

Thanks
Gaurav[/quote]


it was the antipodes, the opposite pole to civilization, an obscure and unimaginable place
Noun, Modifier 1, Modier 2
there is no absolute rule that modifier 2 must modify the noun in modier1, it can jump and can also modify Noun

E.g.
1. He has a car, white colour, branded one that was bought last year.--> clour is not branded but car is . Modifier2 modifies noun
2. he has a car, white colour, not a typical one. --> ambiguous : colour is not typical or car is not typical? --- incorrect
3. He has a car, white colour, a light shadow. --> car can not be light shadow, light shadow must refers to colour. Here modifier 2 modifies noun in modifer1

Verbal rules have lot of grey areas. Thats why decision making comes in picture.
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 21 Feb 2022, 22:35
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Can someone explain the rule of non-essential modifier to me? I eliminated Option A as '' Before Australia was Australia'' is placed between two commas, which makes it non-essential, if I remove this non-essential stuff, sentence becomes meaningless as ''it '' doesn't have any referent anymore.

What is wrong with this understanding?

I understand the meaning issues in rest of the 4 options, but unable to digest the issue of ''non-essential stuff'' placed between the two commas in Option A.

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Vighnesh
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 22 Feb 2022, 05:31
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VIGHNESHKAMATH
Can someone explain the rule of non-essential modifier to me? I eliminated Option A as '' Before Australia was Australia'' is placed between two commas, which makes it non-essential, if I remove this non-essential stuff, sentence becomes meaningless as ''it '' doesn't have any referent anymore.

What is wrong with this understanding?

I understand the meaning issues in rest of the 4 options, but unable to digest the issue of ''non-essential stuff'' placed between the two commas in Option A.

Regards
Vighnesh
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Hello VIGHNESHKAMATH,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, the rule regarding the removal of information between two commas is that after removal, the sentence should still be a complete one.

In this case, even if the phrase between the commas is removed, the sentence will still be complete.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 22 Feb 2022, 21:34
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VIGHNESHKAMATH
I eliminated Option A as '' Before Australia was Australia'' is placed between two commas, which makes it non-essential, if I remove this non-essential stuff, sentence becomes meaningless as ''it '' doesn't have any referent anymore.

What is wrong with this understanding?
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Hi VIGHNESHKAMATH,

That's not the right way to look at non-essential modifiers (the name is slightly misleading :)). Non-essential does not mean that the meaning of such an element is not important or that it doesn't contain important elements.

This is not to say that we should not remove remove modifiers from a sentence. This tactic can be very useful, especially in long sentences, but we should not expect to be able to remove modifiers without losing meaning. Generally, we remove elements from a sentence to check the rest of the sentence for structural issues.
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 18 Oct 2022, 08:03
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Can someone please add ‘meaning’ tag to this question?
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 18 Oct 2022, 09:51
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DesiMozart
Can someone please add ‘meaning’ tag to this question?
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______________________
Done. Thank you!
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 27 Oct 2022, 21:05
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Can you please share your approach to eliminate each of the options

One of the comment mentioned that "it" in option B is ambiguous, if it is correct, isn't "it" in option A also ambiguous?
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 28 Oct 2022, 04:36
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Rickooreo
Can you please share your approach to eliminate each of the options

One of the comment mentioned that "it" in option B is ambiguous, if it is correct, isn't "it" in option A also ambiguous?
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Hello Rickooreo,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, you are correct; there is no ambiguity regarding "it" in Option B; the error in Option B is that the phrase "before there was Australia" illogically implies that many people living in England held a certain belief before Australia existed; the intended meaning is that many people living in England held a certain belief before Australia was known as Australia.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 29 Oct 2022, 20:13
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There is still a pronoun problem with B. Notice that in A, we are talking about how Australia (the place) was known before it was called Australia (the name). When we see "it," this pronoun clearly refers to Australia. However, B shifts to saying "before there was Australia." If we're describing a time before Australia existed, then we can't come in and say "it," since there is nothing for "it" to refer to. If Australia were at least the subject of the modifier, we might get away with it, as in a sentence like this: "Before space travel existed, it was depicted widely in literature and film." But when we just say "Before there was Australia," we are setting up for "there was X." So it's less that "it" is ambiguous--after all, there's no other noun for it to refer to--and more that it does not work in the context of B.

ExpertsGlobal5
Rickooreo
Can you please share your approach to eliminate each of the options

One of the comment mentioned that "it" in option B is ambiguous, if it is correct, isn't "it" in option A also ambiguous?

Hello Rickooreo,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, you are correct; there is no ambiguity regarding "it" in Option B; the error in Option B is that the phrase "before there was Australia" illogically implies that many people living in England held a certain belief before Australia existed; the intended meaning is that many people living in England held a certain belief before Australia was known as Australia.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
Experts' Global Team
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 10 Dec 2022, 10:39
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Good question,
I brought this question down to the bare minimum to get the answer
This isn't a skill-based question but a thinking question

In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Australia, it was the antipodes, .....Appositive, modifier(Dont focus)......., an obscure ................ place that was considered .................


(A) before Australia was Australia, it was the antipodes (People thought of the place that they knew as Antipodes as the end of the world) - Probably Correct

(B) before there was Australia, it was the antipodes (There cant be an Australia(physically) in the minds of people) - Wrong.

(C) it was the antipodes that was Australia - By now you understand why C and D can't be the Answer

(D) Australia was what was the antipodes

(E) Australia was what had been known as the antipodes (If it was in the minds of the people or if it was thought of as an obscure place, it couldn't have been know as Australia) - Wrong

Go for A.
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 11 Dec 2022, 07:54
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What is the role of " before australia was australia" in A? is it a modifier?
What is the antecedent of "it" in A? It can't be australia if the " before australia was australia" is a modifier.
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 11 Dec 2022, 14:06
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What is the role of " before australia was australia" in A? is it a modifier?
What is the antecedent of "it" in A? It can't be australia if the " before australia was australia" is a modifier.
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"Before Australia was Australia" is a clause, in this case. It introduces a clause for 'it' [Australia] being an 'antipode' to happen before.

The story we get is that:

Australia was an antipode.
Then
Australia became 'Australia.'

It's a little...stylish. But consider a less stylish, identical structure:

"Before the slab of wood was a stylish bench, it was garbage on the way to the dump."

The antecedent of 'it' is 'the slab of the wood.' The story we get:

The slab of wood was garbage on the way to the dump.
Then.
The slab of wood became a stylish bench.

The pronoun 'it' in both cases replaces the subject of the first clause, joined by the conjunction 'before.'

(Note also, there's no reason, to my knowledge, that a pronoun can't replace a noun that appears in a modifier).
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In the minds of many people living in England, before Australia was Au 19 Dec 2023, 05:52
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