Least Selective Ultra Elite?

Interesting stats lepium. Actually, even more interesting than the breakdown by background was the breakdown by foreign country. The average GMAT from China continues to be higher than the average from India by about 30 points (consistent over the reported frame of the last 5 years). The real change is that 2-3 years ago India passed China in the number of applications.

Indian is among the toughest profiles, but the competition from China is far tougher - yet it seems that you constantly hear about how tough it is for Indians, while you never seem to hear the same about Chinese applicants. I guess the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Average GMAT, last 5 years:

Years -- India -- China
01-02 -- 557 -- 592
02-03 -- 556 -- 593
03-04 -- 560 -- 588
04-05 -- 560 -- 589
05-06 -- 572 -- 600
Avg -- 561 -- 592.4 (not weighted for annual volume)

When looking at countries that generate a few thousand applications per year, the breakdown actually looks like this (based on a quick scan):

Average GMAT over 5 years, not weighted for annual volume:
China 592.4
United Kingdom 579
Singapore 574.4
India 561
Korea 557.8
Canada 557.2
France 546
German 542.2
Russia 537
Turkey 529.6
Taiwan 516
Israel 508.8
Mexico 479.6
Thailand 476.2

So, these numbers seem to indicate that while Indian is among the toughest demographics, it trails Singapore, UK and especially China by a wide margin. The Indian GMAT demographic is actually most like Korea and Canada.

It seems that the myth that "all Indian applicants score 750" is just that, a myth. Indian applicants do not appear to get ultra-high scores at a prolific enough rate to offset average and lower scores common to every demographic. From the limited available data, I believe the only conclusions that can be drawn are that 1) Indians do make up the largest applicant group from any country, 2) they do obtain high average scores on the GMAT (though not nearly the highest) and 3) that the substantial net numbers of high scoring Indian applicants is a factor of these two things. A lot take the test, and some score highly.

where did you get the data? very interesting.

some of non-English speaking countries' average are higher than Canada's????

I think we need to look into one additional aspect.

Unlike the average applicants from Canada or from other developed countries, MBA applicants from India or from China are more "privileged" and "selected". Which means that they have higher expectation and motives to score well on the GMAT. Because of the higher motives, they do find various ways to improve their score as others already mentioned.

I have to disagree w/ the speculation that people from developing/under-developed countries are taking the GMAT multiple times to increase their score. $250 per pop is not a cheap price for these applicants! (I am not talking about Indians or Chinese who works in US or developed country earning the local salary.)

We have deviated from the original topic

Different demographics are bound to have different strengths and weaknesses. Indians may be good at quant et al, but they are generally weak in extra-curriculars and in showing leadership in general. So, looking through our GMAT tinted glasses (We are at gmatclub.com, after all), the Indian demographic may seem tough. Perhaps it is not that tough for an Indian who has shown leadership and worked on other EC activities.

Moreover, there are just a lot of Indians on this planet (More than a billion). So although the number of Indian-MBA-applicants might be a tiny fraction of the total population, it will still be a fairly large number. Then the number of applicants getting great GMAT scores might again be a tiny fraction of all Indian-MBA-applicants, it will still be a fairly large number compared to that of other demographics. (I am basing this on the data on average GMAT that pelihu provided).

Too bad that we are all Indians whereas people from Europe are Greek / Italian etc.

ps. Pelihu, thanks for letting me know that the competition for Chinese (From US or China) is far tougher. For some reason, that makes me feel better

This reminds of an anecdote that my Indian (she's an MD) friend told me. When she first came over to the States, her first conversational English (American) was with the flight attendant. Neither of them could understand each other's English.

I am sure when I go to Durham there will be some adjustments to various pronunciations.

The data comes from the link that lepium posted above. It is the GMAC official report for 2001-206. I remember a long long time ago (actually more like 9 months ago) when I was early in the application process like mNeo, and every piece of data seemed so relevant. With just a few months to go before the application process, there are just a few things you can really focus on.

It's too late to change your undergraduate record, but you might be able to take a few classes to show them you are serious. It's probably too late to start trying to add new activities that will make a difference. You probably still have time to maximize your efforts on the GMAT; (mNeo obviously doesn't need to worry about this) and I believe it is in each person's best interest to do so as long as it doesn't affect other parts of their application. Of course, once the GMAT is in the books, the biggest things left to do are to write the essays, and prepare for interviews.

Back to the original topic. If the goal is to get into an ultra-elite - any ultra-elite - then I believe the best chances are with Columbia's early decision program. Of course, you must apply very early and are locked in if accepted, but as far as selectivity I vote for that as the best bet. Later in the process, Columbia is among the toughest, but early on the door seems to be every so slightly ajar.

For applications for ultra elite schools, there are tons of stellar achievements other than a high GMAT. I see two guys from my country who had a 760, were rejected by Chicago and Kellogg ( the number of people got this score is not more than 5 in my country). Chicago denifitely emphasizes extracurricular activivies and cerainly welcomes artistic backgrounds (you easily find it in essays and interview). It's hard to define which schools more selective, except for Stanford and Harvard, I think (even I never tried them). But IMO, Wharton perhaps prefers experienced guys, Kellogg is likely to look for team-oriented women, Chicago searchs under-representative and strong analytical candidates, and Stanford and Harvard probably accept innovative leaders who care for the rest of the world ...etc. However, I'm sure that no ultra elites accept high GMAT and GPA candidates, but these applicants who show weakness in the rest of applications.
-:)

I see Columbia has a 2 month gap in when it receives apps. So do you have to submit early in their decision round to be considered for the Early decision?

I also read this on their website

options and deadlines

Columbia Business School makes a point of offering the same flexibility it encourages in students. You may wish to consider the additional program and application options listed below.
Columbia Business School has a rolling admissions process. Applications are reviewed in the order in which they are received and decisions can be rendered at any point during the review period. It is always to your benefit to apply before the posted deadline.

DEADLINES

Application Review Period Begins Decision Period (once a complete Application goes under review) Application Deadline



January 2008
Accelerated MBA Program April 25,
2007 Within 8 weeks October 10, 2007



September 2008
Early Decision August 15,
2007 Within 10 weeks October 10, 2007



September 2008
(International Applicants) January 9, 2008 Within 12 weeks March 3, 2008**



September 2008
(U.S. Citizens and Permanent Residents) January 9, 2008 Within 12 weeks April 16, 2008**

** Applicants who wish to be considered for a merit-based fellowship must submit a complete application by January 9, 2008. Fellowship recipients for the September class are announced between January and May.



Accelerated MBA Program
The Accelerated MBA Program is completed in four consecutive terms, beginning in January 2008 and concluding in May 2009.
The program is ideal for:

Entrepreneurs
Individuals who will be joining or returning to family businesses
Students who are sponsored by their employers
Students who plan to remain in their chosen field or who have built a strong network in the industry of their choice
The program is designed for those students who do not want or need an internship. The principal advantage of this 16-month program is its accelerated format, which allows members of the smaller January class to network quickly and effectively and to return to the workplace sooner.


Early Decision

The Early Decision option is ideal for candidates who have completed their research about MBA programs and have decided that Columbia is their first-choice school. Early Decision applications are reviewed before Regular Decision applications. Early Decision candidates must sign the following Statement of Commitment:


As an Early Decision candidate to Columbia Business School, I understand that if I am admitted I will submit my non-refundable $5000 deposit to secure my place in the September entering class.

As an Early Decision candidate to Columbia Business School, I understand that if I am admitted I will submit my non-refundable $5000 deposit to secure my place in the September entering class.

So do the students start class that year? When does the September entering class start?

Why do people simply assume that people who scored well on the GMAT must have studied really hard? I have no doubt that quite a few Indian IT people (among others) who are quite capable of scoring in the mid-upper 700s with minimal studying.

It doesn't matter anyway, since a high GMAT alone won't get you into a top school.

I think the major reason for such high scores has to do with the basic schooling ...GMAT maths sections deal with very basic concepts which are taught very early in Indian schools(Std 9-10), so Quant usually is a cake walk.

The usual challenge Indians face is in Verbal(specially RC and SC)...since English isn't the first language in India...though in most schools and colleges English is the mode of teaching...

Columbia 1st bracket is all Early Decision = increased charge of $5k deposit.

Earlier the better in the bracket will always be better in rolling applications, it would stand to reason.

First of all I'm not assuming that people who scored well on the GMAT must have studied really hard -- this was just one option which I offered for anyone who might have some insight to offer.

I thought it might be a possible explanation because I've read articles and books about how hard Indians and Chinese study in general because they know that education is their ticket out of poverty, or at least to a better future. So I assumed that if Indians are studying very hard in general, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that they are studying hard for the GMAT.

As it turns out, it looks like the answer to my question was probably a combination of options, but it looks like option A goes a long way toward explaining things. If Indian's average score is below that of China, UK, and Singapore, then there's a selection bias where the Indians motivated enough to score well are the same ones likely to stumble on a site like this.

In johnnyx9's defense, he was just offering various possible reasons that could explain why Indians get great GMAT scores. I think that most of the Indians who get 750+ GMAT don't study for it really hard (I studied for 1 ½ months – mostly Sentence Correction). However, a lot of us did work a lot on Mathematics for IIT entrance exams in our childhood. So hard-work (From the past) does come into play.

However, seeing that the average GMAT score of Indians is no better than that of people from any other country, perhaps the Indians who frequent the forums are not the correct representation of the rest of the Indians. Internet is still not a very common phenomenon in India. A lot of people don't use it at all, and the ones that do, only use it to check emails. So, people who frequent the forums are mostly from a technical background (Working in India or US in Software related fields). So, obviously we will score high in Quant ! And all of us, educated enough to contemplate an MBA, have studied English for long enough to not fare too badly in Verbal either (Our accents might be funny, but our sentence-formation ain't bad ).

This can also explain why we seem to lack in leadership and extra-curriculars. I think it's a well known fact that people from technical background are less social and have less of a life outside the computer. There must certainly be a lot of Indians who can't get a great GMAT score, but have great leadership and extra-curriculars. But perhaps such people aren't aware of their MBA options and what an MBA can do for them. Or perhaps they just don't visit the forums.

Totally agree with mneo's comments posted above. Most of Indian high scorers on this forum belong to the dreaded Indian IT demographic and as engineers are generally strong in quant and do not have to work a lot on it.

Whereas verbal is a bit of an issue for many of us.
Answer johnny's question is D and then too some extent A.

I think if the profiles of Indian GMAT test takers who scored 750+ were examined then there would probably be a substantially higher concentration of applicants from the IT profession compared to similar comparisons for any other demographic........... and maybe thats where the problem lies or the opportunity if you are a 750+ non-IT Indian

Jumping into this late and joining the off-topic part of it to boot, but....

You all were talking about Indian GMAT scores and how they're not as high as a nationality as we all assumed, based on our interactions on this forum. Johnny proposed some ideas to explain why some Indians seem to score so high. I wondered about this:

India churns a lot of MBA grads out of its own schools -- I don't know how many, but it's a lot. I believe these applicants take the GMAT as well.

Does China have this many b-schools? And if they do, do they take the GMAT?

I'm wondering if a lot of Indians who want to attend an Indian b-school take the GMAT - and maybe they don't do that well, and don't go to school. So now we have two groups (with some overlap, I am sure) taking the GMAT: Indians who are shooting for US schools and Indians who are shooting for Indian schools. That seems like it might be a big group of folks! And we can't all score at the top -- by definition, most people score below 80%. (In fact, 80% of people do. Dur.)

Does this make sense? I'm experiencing some post-lunch food coma, so can't be sure I'm coherent.

Well, I know that ISB (Indian School of Business) takes GMAT scores.

But as far as I know, most of the other indian B schools need you to take their own tests for admission. For example, the IIMs, perhaps the best (And most reputed) B schools in India, need the Indian applicants to take CAT instead of GMAT .. and the short-listed candidates then take part in a group-discussion or something. I am recalling this from the time when friends from my under-grad school were applying to IIMs. This might have changed now.

And ISB states in their brochures that their average last year was 707 and said the average was among the top 10 schools in the world. I found it kind of tricky / misleading that they used this particular metric (average GMAT) as their differentiating factor in their marketing material.

Before you ask, I did not actually research ISB, I just got brochures from them through the GMASS database.

L.