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With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to

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New post 30 Oct 2017, 17:18
2
muditagrawal wrote:
hellosanthosh2k2 wrote:
Hi Mike,

I have one question. Preposition + noun + participle is not preferred in GMAT as too much of action jammed into single modifier.

But each option for this question has this "Preposition + noun + participle" - "With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point" modifier - is this correct?

Please help.

Thanks


Hi Mike
In your article written about the usage of above-mentioned sort of construction(With + Noun +Participle)the link for which I've shared, You've described 02 cases when these constructions would work. Link: https://magoosh.com/gmat/2015/with-noun ... orrection/
i Case I: action by a different agent, where "With + Noun +Participle" is always wrong as per the article.
II Case II: additional description: where the " With + Noun +Participle" phrase makes sense with the subject of the sentence and provides an additional description about it and the usage is correct.

However, I fail to see the usage of "With + Noun +Participle" in the problem of this thread falling into any of these categories. Kindly explain how the expression " With + Noun +Participle " makse sense with the clause here.
Thanks

Dear muditagrawal & hellosanthosh2k2,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes, this is a good blog to cite:
with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction

Notice that the present participle is inherently active, so "with" + [noun] + [present participle] can sound like an action, and students may be tempted to use this as place to put action in a sentence. All the examples discussed in that blog involve present participles.

The past participle is inherently passive, so the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure is less likely to be construed as an action. Here, there is not really an action happening in the "with" clause, because the participle is a passive participle. This mitigates against classifying this as a Case I example. It's very hard to think of examples of the the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure that would be wrong. It's fine here.

Also--and this is something I discuss in that blog in the "One Test" section--does the fundamental logic of "with" obtain in this situation? Is the online company "with its network"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with its customers"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with the patience of its customers"? It sounds awfully odd to state it this way, but yes, theoretically, the company could be accompanies by the moral virtues of its customers. Fundamentally, there is nothing illogical about the use of the word "with."

Thus, this sentence is perfectly fine, and version (C) is the best version of it.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to  [#permalink]

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New post 20 Dec 2017, 11:27
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

A. the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the online service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
B. the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
C. its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
D. its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
E. its network and its customers' patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving
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New post 20 Dec 2017, 22:47
AbdurRakib wrote:
The Official Guide for GMAT Review 2018
Practice Question
Sentence Correction
Question No.: 782

With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve

(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving


for this problem, we need to understand the pattern
noun+to do

this partern is hard to learn. for some noun,not all noun, we haver to use "noun+ to do" . this is an idiom applicable to some nouns, not all noun.

we have to remember those nouns when reading the text. the idiom mean that for those noun " noun+doing" is incorrect.

this concept looks simple but it is not simple.

we need to know that there are some meaniing relations between noun and "to do". some of them,
- adverb of "to do" is the noun
- appositive of "noun" is "to do". our case, "to try" is appositive of "initiative". "to try" is similar to
initiative, the measure , you do. in this case, "to try" is similar to "measure".
-to do is object of noun. the matter to solve is hard.

in these meaning relation. noun DOSE NOT do the action of " to do" as in the case with choice D and E.


we do not need to remember those meaning relations. we need to remember that "noun+ to do" is idiom applicable to some, but not all, noun and that the meaing relation is not that noun perform the action of "to do".
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New post 06 Jan 2018, 04:08
mikemcgarry wrote:
AbdurRakib wrote:
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

A. the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
B. the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
C. its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
D. its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
E. its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

Dear AbdurRakib

I'm happy to respond. :-)

I began focusing on the split at the end. The verb "try" most naturally takes the infinitive; "try" + [gerund] sounds casual. Also, the infinitive of purpose sounds more natural than a participle or a "that" clause. Therefore, (C) seems like the best choice.

Also, notice that we don't have to repeat the word "with," so (A) & (D) are out.

The phrase "its customers’ patience" in (E) is very awkward.

Rhetorically, when we have a preposition and then two elements, one long and one short, it often makes more sense to have the shorter one first so that we can see the relationship that both elements have to the preposition. Thus:
With its network and the patience of its customers = more preferable
With the patience of its customers and its network = less preferable

All of these work together to make (C) the best answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hello Mike!



Would you be so kind as to explain me why the clause starting with "that" in choice B is wrong?

What I specifically mean is that, being supposed that the company didn´t try to relieve the congestion through announcing those initiatives BUT that, in fact, those initiatives were the ones directed to try to relieve such congestion, I don´t understand why the "that" as a vital-noun modifier is wrong here.



Thanks for your time and your attention!
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New post 08 Jan 2018, 11:22
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RooIgle wrote:
Hello Mike!

Would you be so kind as to explain me why the clause starting with "that" in choice B is wrong?

What I specifically mean is that, being supposed that the company didn´t try to relieve the congestion through announcing those initiatives BUT that, in fact, those initiatives were the ones directed to try to relieve such congestion, I don´t understand why the "that" as a vital-noun modifier is wrong here.

Thanks for your time and your attention!

Dear RooIgle,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Think about it this way: who is doing the "trying"?

Of course, the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying."

With this in mind, look at the answer choices.
(B) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Choice (C), in using the infinitive of purpose, correctly suggests that the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying." By contrast, the "that" clause in (B) illogically suggests that the "series of new initiatives" is doing the "trying."

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 08 Jan 2018, 14:03
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mikemcgarry wrote:

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Think about it this way: who is doing the "trying"?

Of course, the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying."

With this in mind, look at the answer choices.
(B) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Choice (C), in using the infinitive of purpose, correctly suggests that the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying." By contrast, the "that" clause in (B) illogically suggests that the "series of new initiatives" is doing the "trying."

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)



Seeing it that way it does start making sense to me.

Such action verbs as "try" have to correspond to an active subject. For example, the "that" would be correct if the sentence were "... a series of new initiatives that are oriented ..." and this is correct because the "initiatives" are "allowed" to be something but, as you well said, they cannot try anything because they are not able to carry out any actions in general.


Thanks for your response Mike. Very insightful! I´ll certainly apply it the next time :-)


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New post 03 Mar 2018, 17:39
for all answers, I can only find the mistakes using "try to do", are there any other points I have missed? Please explain.
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New post 11 Mar 2018, 17:30
AbdurRakib wrote:
The Official Guide for GMAT Review 2018
Practice Question
Sentence Correction
Question No.: 782

With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve

(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving



As I always tell myself that most of the 700+ range questions are filled with Awkward constructions, this question is a perfect proof for that.
After reading this given sentence, I could get this that Company announced something to achieve something. So 'to achieve something(intention)' should always be expressed using
Infinitive Verb (to + Verb). I scanned through the end of all the choices.

With that, I narrowed down to A, B, and C.
A. Initiatives trying to relieve -- > it is the company trying to relieve not initiatives--- Kill it
B. Initiatives that try to relieve -- > used the same reason, with which I killed A --- > Kick it to hell
C. Initiatives to try to relieve -- > this is the reason Company announced the initiatives ---> Correct choice

I agree, there are more challenging errors in the given sentence but within a min, I could come up with only this.

Hope this helps :thumbup:
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New post 09 Apr 2018, 12:33
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cicitang wrote:
for all answers, I can only find the mistakes using "try to do", are there any other points I have missed? Please explain.



Hello cicitang,

I am not sure if your doubt still persists. Here is the explanation nonetheless. :-)

Error in Choice A:

i. The parallel elements in this choice is:

    With the patience of its customers and
    with its network strained to the breaking point

The choice fails to convey that the patience of the customers also reached the breaking point.


Errors in Choice B:

i. The parallel elements in this choice is: With the patience of

    its customers and
    with its network

The word patience associates with the network too.

ii. Use of simple present tense verb try is incorrect because the sentence is actually set in the past context as evident by the usage of the simple past tense verb announced.


Error in Choice D:

i. The parallel elements in this choice are:

    With its network and
    with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point

The choice fails to convey that its network also reached the breaking point.


Hope this helps. :-).
Thanks.
Shraddha
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New post 23 Apr 2018, 09:21
abhimahna wrote:
somtsat99 wrote:
Can anyone explain what is wrong in B

Posted from my mobile device


Hi

B has two probelms :

1. "the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point". It is trying to convey the meaning with the patience of a) its customers b) its network. This is illogical meaning. There is not patience of its network.

2. "the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve". Look at the word 'that'. It means initiatives were trying to relieve something. Hence, again Illogical.

I hope it makes sense. :)


Hey abhimahna

As per me the 1st reason you gave that the patience of modifies both 'its customers' and 'its network' is a possibility which creates doubt but it may not always be that case that this is the only meaning which can come out of it.

I understood it as -
a) the patience of its customers
and
b) its network

strained to the breaking point... The 1st section of the OA is nothing but the flip of these two parts
i.e. B and A strained to breaking point....

So I will take your highlighted meaning as a possibility which causes ambiguity and confusion rather than the only meaning possible of this construction.
And on that ground of 2 meanings possible (and , of course, the problem with 'that'), I rejected it.

Let me know if I am not correct.
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New post 12 Jul 2018, 12:43
Can someone explain parallelism in option A:

With the patience of its customers and
with its network strained to the breaking point

vs

With the patience of its customers and
with its network strained to the breaking point

Why is it not the second case? I think "with its network strained to the breaking point" and "With the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point " are both correct.
I can only cross this option because "initiatives +trying" is wrong.
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New post 31 Jul 2018, 21:35
In C - its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point,

Can't the two parallel items be (parallel nouns) :
1. its network
2. the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point.

So, if I have first case:
With its network,the online company announced.... This is wrong. Am I thinking correctly? I did not put "strained to the breaking point " in 1 because it is possible that it just modifies "the patience of its customers' as in 2.
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New post 15 Aug 2018, 11:30
1
Hello Everyone!

Let's take a look at this question, and narrow down the options quickly to find the correct answer! To get started, here is the original sentence with any major differences between each option highlighted in orange:

With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

After a quick glance over each option, only 2 major differences appear between each option:

1. The order of items in the beginning: customers + network / network + customers
2. Their endings: trying to relieve / that try to relieve / to try to relieve / to try relieving


#1 on our list will eliminate the most options quickly (either 2 or 3), so let's start there. Let's look at what each sentence means when we switch around the order of the customers and network:

With the patience of the customers and its network strained to the breaking point = the patience of the customers and the patience of its network

This is the WRONG option because it says that the patience of BOTH the customers and the network is strained, which doesn't make sense. The network is strained, but doesn't have the ability to be patient - it's not a person!

With its network and the patience of the customers strained to the breaking point = the network is strained and the patience of the customers is strained

This is the CORRECT option because it puts the emphasis on BOTH the network and the customers being strained, which is logical and true!

This means we can eliminate options A & B right away because they create an illogical parallel statement.

Now that we're left with only 3 options, let's tackle #2 on the list: their endings. For this, we need to know the difference between "to try to" and "try doing" something:

to try to do something = to put in an effort to do something you already know can be successful / "I want to try to learn the piano this year."
try doing something = to do something as an experiment; you're not sure it will be successful / "Try adding more salt to your cookie batter."

For this sentence, it makes the most sense to say that they company created initiative to try to relieve congestion because they know it's possible to do, but they just need to put in the effort. So let's see how each answer stacks up:

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

This option is CORRECT because the beginning of the phrase is in the correct order to make sense. It also uses the correct "to try to," which conveys the correct meaning that the company has to put in an effort to fix the problem they know can be fixed.

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

This option is INCORRECT because it uses the phrase "to try relieving," which suggests that the company isn't sure their initiatives will be possible or even work. It's much stronger to say "to try to" do something because it shows that success is definitely possible.

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

This option is INCORRECT for a couple reasons. First, it's not necessary to use the apostrophe in "customers'" because it's not being followed by a plural word (for example "customers' chairs" would be okay). It also uses the incorrect "to try relieving" which conveys the wrong meaning.

There you have it - option C is the correct answer!


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New post 14 Sep 2018, 03:18
mikemcgarry wrote:
leshwarnag wrote:
Can someone explain all the answers please?

Thanks in advance

Dear leshwarnag,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

My friend, because I care about your learning, I am going to chide you. This is not a very good question that you have asked. Think about it. How much thought and time and effort did it take you to write this question? You might have written it and posted it in, say, 30 seconds. There are a few problems with this question. First of all, how is an expert such as myself supposed to know what you understand or don't understand? More importantly, it doesn't demonstrate a tremendous amount of commitment to yourself. You are expecting almost all the energy & effort that will contribute to your learning about this to come from outside of you. Many students have the dangerous misconception that education is something that teachers & schools & test prep experts DO to them: in this benighted view, the teachers & instructors are the actors and the students are just the passive recipients. In fact, this is completely the opposite of the truth. Your education is 100% your responsibility: it is something you do to yourself, for yourself, by yourself, with the help and support of teachers & experts.

My friend, I am very ambitious for you. I want to see you pursue excellent. One of the habits of excellence is the art of asking excellent questions. See:
Asking Excellent Questions

I am going to challenge you. Come back to this page, and read carefully through my post above and every other post on this page, and then explain in great detail exactly what you understand and what you don't understand. Doing so will make it easier for an expert to answer you, but much more important, you deepen your own understanding when you thoughtfully evaluate what you comprehend and what is still fuzzy for you, and this pre-work prompts your mind to integrate a response at a deeper level. Finally, when you are practicing the art of asking excellence questions, you are also practicing self-responsibility, and few characters traits will win you recognition & promotions in your career as genuine self-responsibility will. The pay-off of the art of asking excellent questions is absolutely huge and very easy for unambitious students to underestimate.

Ask the best question you can ask, and I will be happy to answer it.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



The guy just wanted to know why wrong answers are wrong and correct answers are correct.
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New post 06 Oct 2018, 10:29
mikemcgarry wrote:
RooIgle wrote:
Hello Mike!

Would you be so kind as to explain me why the clause starting with "that" in choice B is wrong?

What I specifically mean is that, being supposed that the company didn´t try to relieve the congestion through announcing those initiatives BUT that, in fact, those initiatives were the ones directed to try to relieve such congestion, I don´t understand why the "that" as a vital-noun modifier is wrong here.

Thanks for your time and your attention!

Dear RooIgle,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Think about it this way: who is doing the "trying"?

Of course, the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying."

With this in mind, look at the answer choices.
(B) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Choice (C), in using the infinitive of purpose, correctly suggests that the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying." By contrast, the "that" clause in (B) illogically suggests that the "series of new initiatives" is doing the "trying."

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)


OMG I WAS GOING CRAZY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY "THAT" WAS INCORRECT. THANK YOU!
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New post 07 Oct 2018, 05:49
mikemcgarry wrote:
AbdurRakib wrote:
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

A. the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
B. the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
C. its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
D. its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
E. its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

Dear AbdurRakib

I'm happy to respond. :-)

I began focusing on the split at the end. The verb "try" most naturally takes the infinitive; "try" + [gerund] sounds casual. Also, the infinitive of purpose sounds more natural than a participle or a "that" clause. Therefore, (C) seems like the best choice.

Also, notice that we don't have to repeat the word "with," so (A) & (D) are out.

The phrase "its customers’ patience" in (E) is very awkward.

Rhetorically, when we have a preposition and then two elements, one long and one short, it often makes more sense to have the shorter one first so that we can see the relationship that both elements have to the preposition. Thus:
With its network and the patience of its customers = more preferable
With the patience of its customers and its network = less preferable

All of these work together to make (C) the best answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hello Mike!!
I have one doubt regarding usage of "with" in option A
Can't "with" can be used to maintain //sm with double inside rule as mentioned in your videos??
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Hi experts ! is there any differences between "try to do and try doing"? thank you in advance.
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