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Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and

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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 14 Jan 2018, 21:36
I understand that C is the best option among all but doesn't "who" in C refer incorrectly to firms rather than the proportion of women ? It is a strict rule when it comes to relative pronouns such as who, which etc.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 14 Jan 2018, 22:28
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piyush1995 wrote:
I understand that C is the best option among all but doesn't "who" in C refer incorrectly to firms rather than the proportion of women ? It is a strict rule when it comes to relative pronouns such as who, which etc.

Hi piyush1995, who just cannot refer to firms, because grammatically, who cannot refer to non-persons (and firm is a non-person).

In fact, who is not intended to refer to proportion either. who is actually referring to judges and partners.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 15 Jan 2018, 15:49
Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and passing bar examinations,
the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women have not risen to a comparable extent.

(A) the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women have not risen to a comparable extent

(B) the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms have not risen comparably

(C) the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women has not risen comparably

(D) yet the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms has not risen to a comparable extent

(E) yet the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women has not risen comparably

in D & E - Use of two contrast words are incorrect
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 15 Jan 2019, 08:50
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the question is about SV number agreement and logic.
splitting the choices into 3-2

the proportion is singular-- hence A,B are out

Coming to c,D,E ..
the first one starts with despite which is a dependent Clause.
the use of yet in the second sentence is not logical as it will become a dependent clause too..
D and E are out.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Jan 2019, 06:43
GMATNinja wrote:

Well, there are two things that are different in (D) than in (C). One is that the word “comparably” is used in (C), but “to a comparable extent” appears in its place in (D). Honestly, I don’t know if this is a big deal. “Comparably” seems more succinct to me, but I’m not sure that “to a comparable extent” is necessarily WRONG. I certainly wouldn’t eliminate (D) based on that alone, even though I mildly prefer the shorter version in (C).

The other weird issue is the use of “yet” at the beginning of the underlined portion. So that gives us “Despite the increasing number of women…, yet the proportion of women judges…” That’s wrong: both “yet” and “despite” begin dependent clauses, so now the sentence just consists of two dependent clauses in a row. That’s not OK.

So (D) is out.



Good day Sir Charles GMATNinja

I'm a little confused with "despite" and "yet"
As far as I know "comma + FANBOYS" starts new IC, why "yet" in (D) is DC?
I considered that "Despite" is firts dependent clause, then "comma+yet"-IC so structure of the sentence is fine...
To me (D) was more appetitive that (C) with "who" modifier... :roll:

Without "yet" (D) will be correct from meaning and grammar standpoint?
Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and passing bar examinations, the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms has not risen to a comparable extent

Could you please enlighten my doubts?
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 20 Jan 2019, 04:35
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GMATNinja wrote:

Well, there are two things that are different in (D) than in (C). One is that the word “comparably” is used in (C), but “to a comparable extent” appears in its place in (D). Honestly, I don’t know if this is a big deal. “Comparably” seems more succinct to me, but I’m not sure that “to a comparable extent” is necessarily WRONG. I certainly wouldn’t eliminate (D) based on that alone, even though I mildly prefer the shorter version in (C).

The other weird issue is the use of “yet” at the beginning of the underlined portion. So that gives us “Despite the increasing number of women…, yet the proportion of women judges…” That’s wrong: both “yet” and “despite” begin dependent clauses, so now the sentence just consists of two dependent clauses in a row. That’s not OK.

So (D) is out.



Good day Sir Charles GMATNinja

I'm a little confused with "despite" and "yet"
As far as I know "comma + FANBOYS" starts new IC, why "yet" in (D) is DC?
I considered that "Despite" is firts dependent clause, then "comma+yet"-IC so structure of the sentence is fine...
To me (D) was more appetitive that (C) with "who" modifier... :roll:

Could you please enlighten my doubts?

Worry less about the terminology and more about the logic of the construction.

Consider a simple example: "Timmy screamed all night, yet his father still attended the whiny kid's birthday party the next day." Technically, "yet" is a conjunction creating the expectation of a contrast (in this case, between two clauses). This is fine.

I could also write, "Despite Timmy screaming all night, his father still attended the whiny kid's birthday party the next day." "Despite" is also a kind of conjunction that sets up an expectation of contrast, except that in this case, "Timmy screaming all night" is not itself a clause. No problems here, either.

But it would be wrong to write "Despite Timmy screaming all night, yet his father still attended the whiny kid's birthday party the next day", because "despite" and "yet" are both performing the same function. Logic and meaning are the important things here -- not the technical grammar terms.

Quote:
Without "yet" (D) will be correct from meaning and grammar standpoint?
Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and passing bar examinations, the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms has not risen to a comparable extent

This version fixes the major error. I'd still prefer "comparably" to "to a comparable extent" though I wouldn't say that the second phrase is technically wrong, and I doubt the difference would ever be the major decision point in an official question.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jan 2019, 14:27
How do you know that proportion is the subject and not women?
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post Updated on: 27 Jan 2019, 21:25
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Where do you have a choice among the five, having women as the subject? Our job is to find the correct choice among the given five unless we are trying to create our own topics? I am afraid this approach is simply out of scope.

Now that this is an official question, are we going to say that we cannot answer this question, as there are no correct answers?
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Originally posted by daagh on 27 Jan 2019, 09:36.
Last edited by daagh on 27 Jan 2019, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Jan 2019, 12:58
daagh wrote:
Andi







andi

Where do you have a choice among the five, having women as the subject? Our job is to find the correct choice among the given five unless we are u trying to create our own topics? I am afraid this approach is simply out of scope.

Now that this is an official question, are we going to say that we cannot answer this question, as there are no correct answers?



Thank you for the response Daagh.

But Women is part of the underline and it's included in all of the possible answer choices:

Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and passing bar examinations, the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women have not risen to a comparable extent.


And if you ask yourself "who/what have not risen to a comparable extent" wouldn't the logical answer be the women?
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Jan 2019, 21:45
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You may see that this is a clause starting with a modifier and followed by the subject of the main sentence, namely, the proportion. If women were the subject, then the clause should have started with the word "women". Just because 'women' is found somewhere in the underlined part, it won't be eligible to become the subject. There are so many other words also in the underlined part. Can they all contend to be the subjects? What is being compared is the previous proportion with the current proportion.

This is a fundamental tenet in sentence construction. However, let's keep it aside for a while and focus on this question. You are still not telling us as to which is your preferred choice as per your thinking.

If you feel you are correct, please feel free to cling to your views notwithstanding that others may not agree
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 03 Feb 2019, 00:58
by default, -this means when there is a split between plural and singular,- collective nouns is singular. a group of, a proportion of+ countable noun is this pattern.

but this dose not mean collective nouns cannot take plural. in OA of some problems on gmat, plural verb can go with collective nouns.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 08 Oct 2019, 22:16
How would "who" be justified after the word firms? is who not referring to women? and how is option E been eliminated ? Please explain. Thank you
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 09 Oct 2019, 01:14
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rachnak82 wrote:
How would "who" be justified after the word firms? is who not referring to women? and how is option E been eliminated ? Please explain. Thank you

Hi Rachna, you are right. who cannot modify firms, since who can only modify persons. So, who is not modifying firms, but judges and partners.

Easiest way to eliminate E is on the basis of redundancy: since we already have despite, we don't need yet.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 12 Oct 2019, 02:41
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
(A) the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women have not risen to a comparable extent

This one is a gift from the GMAT gods: “… the proportion of (blah blah)… HAVE not risen…”

Nope, that’s a classic subject-verb error. We can get rid of (A). Thank you for giving us something easy for once, GMAT!

Quote:
(B) the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms have not risen comparably

(B) has exactly the same subject-verb error as (A): “… the proportion… HAVE not risen…” So (B) is gone, too.

Isn’t this exciting?

Quote:
(C) the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women has not risen comparably

Well, this works just fine: “the proportion… has not risen comparably.” Let’s keep (C).

Quote:
(D) yet the proportion of women judges and partners at major law firms has not risen to a comparable extent

Well, there are two things that are different in (D) than in (C). One is that the word “comparably” is used in (C), but “to a comparable extent” appears in its place in (D). Honestly, I don’t know if this is a big deal. “Comparably” seems more succinct to me, but I’m not sure that “to a comparable extent” is necessarily WRONG. I certainly wouldn’t eliminate (D) based on that alone, even though I mildly prefer the shorter version in (C).

The other weird issue is the use of “yet” at the beginning of the underlined portion. So that gives us “Despite the increasing number of women…, yet the proportion of women judges…” That’s wrong: both “yet” and “despite” begin dependent clauses, so now the sentence just consists of two dependent clauses in a row. That’s not OK.

So (D) is out.

Quote:
(E) yet the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women has not risen comparably

And (E) has exactly the same problem as (D): two consecutive dependent clauses does NOT give us a legitimate sentence.

So we can eliminate (E), and (C) is our answer.


Isn't C ambiguous in that it looks as if who are women modifies law firms.
Best could have been "at law firms. the proportion of blah blah who are women blah blah". Please guide.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 12 Oct 2019, 23:20
azhrhasan wrote:
Isn't C ambiguous in that it looks as if who are women modifies law firms.

who cannot modify law firms, because who can only modify persons.
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and  [#permalink]

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New post 24 Oct 2019, 19:07
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Isn't C ambiguous in that it looks as if who are women modifies law firms.
Best could have been "at law firms. the proportion of blah blah who are women blah blah". Please guide.

You always want to eliminate concrete errors first. Ideally, you'd never consider pronoun ambiguity at all, but if you did, it would be as a last resort. In this particular question, we have some nice, juicy decision points.

First, there's the question of whether "yet" is correct. I can write, "Despite Tim's tendency to shower once a month, he often smells of vanilla and lavender." Or I can write, "Tim tends to shower once a month, yet he often smells of vanilla and lavender." But I can't write, "Despite Tim's tendency to shower once a month, yet he often smells of vanilla and lavender."

Put another way, I can introduce a contrasting modifier with "despite," or I can connect contrasting clauses with "yet," but I can't do both. Eliminate (D) and (E).

Next, there's choice between "have" and "has" in the second part of the sentence. The subject is "proportion," which is singular, so we want "has." That leaves us with (C). No need to waste brainpower on the usage of "who."

Also, bear in mind that "who" has to refer to people. If you look at the relevant clause, "the proportion of judges and partners at major law firms who are women, the only element "who" could be describing is "judges and partners," so there's no real ambiguity here. (And again, even if there were, pronoun ambiguity alone is not a good reason for eliminating an answer choice.)

I hope that helps!
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Re: Despite the increasing number of women graduating from law school and   [#permalink] 24 Oct 2019, 19:07

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