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kidderek
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Down On Consulting 19 Mar 2007, 07:59
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dukes
I'm interested in this as well, but what would be most useful would be a list of typical exit opportunities by level. Anectotally, I know where McKinsey or Bain consultants have gone after leaving (I work with quite a few), but it would be nice to see where people typicaly go once they have put in 2 years, 5 years, or folks who made partner or sr. partner.


dukes,

can you throw in what you know.
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Down On Consulting 19 Mar 2007, 11:11
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kidderek
Can you comment on possible exit positions?


Approximately:
- Business Analysts become senior analysts
- Associates become corporate managers
- Managers become corporate directors
- Partners become corporate VPs
- Directors become CXOs

The numerous exceptions:
- Some go on to non-managerial positions in PE/VC/other professional services (lower leadership, much higher pay)
- Associates with significant pre-consulting work experience can become corporate directors; particularly impressive Business Analysts can be recruited into managerial roles
- Mid-market and smaller companies tend to bring in consultants at a higher level than corporations
- Many go on to start their own businesses

Note that I said approximately, and also be aware that number of years of work experience (consulting and non-consulting) are very much a factor. Although age discrimination is generally not allowed, the fact of the matter is that a 35-year-old Associate looks more attractive than a fast-tracked 28-year-old Associate. Exiting consultants are generally younger than your typical corporate manager, and it does cause issues with the rank and file. But that's just a fact of life. How would you like to leave business school for a consulting firm and immediately report to a manager who's significantly younger than you?
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 05:28
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first off, thanks a ton guys for information on mc..very useful perspectives.

saw some questions on in house consultancies, thought i could share some information.

My company has an inhouse consultancy division. This is quite a high profile position to get , and the team members are recruited directly from INSEAD, IMD , Harvard and Stanford. Typically, after doing 2 or 3 year stints in the consultancy division, they transition into very senior positions across the company across the globe. So, it is used as a talent pipeline. I have spoken with many of these guys, and this is what they have shared with me

a. Payscales are as competitive as regular management consultancies, plus theres the added benefit of fast track careers, and positions of real responsibility..eg : you could do a couple of years in an IMC then take on a country manager role ,running a half a billion dollar business.. within 2-3 years.
b. It gives you exposure to real problems, and unlike external mc, you cant just escape after a slick presentation. you and your reputation are made in the company and its a high risk reward situation. If you are able to convince the CXO levels that the solutions you offer are brilliant, you end up joining the CXOs pretty soon. But if you arent able to convince them, or if you step on some hidden political agenda, you could end up crashing and burning. if the solutions you adopted are half baked, and end up disintegrating in a few years, you will be still be around to be held accountable..

c. the type of work may be less varied, but you tend to get around the jack of all trades syndrome easier, by building depth and expertise in an industry, or few industries.

i am looking at doing an mba and coming back into this sort of internal consultancy division..it seems like a really good option.

PS : The travel thing really sucks. I do sales, and i am out 2 weeks a month..(we do travel business class though) but it kills your life..you dont have a steady passion you can pursue....the miles and hotel points are great though..i have parlayed them well into free vacations.. in fact..the honeymoon is going to be pretty much free as well !

pss : yes..nothing is more hated than a consultant who makes you pull out data for him.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 05:38
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ashaker,

I'm curious... can you tell us a bit about your industry? Are you US based or in Europe?
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 07:24
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An excerpt on internal consulting from Wiki

The rise of internal corporate consulting groups

Added to these approaches are corporations that set up their own internal consulting groups, hiring internal management consultants either from within the corporation or from external firms whose employees have tired of the road warrior lifestyle. Many of these corporations have internal groups of as many as 25 to 30 full-time consultants.

The internal consultant approach is chosen for three reasons. First, the corporation does not want to pay the large fees typically associated with external consulting firms. Second, they want to keep certain corporate information private. Finally, they want a group that more closely works with, and monitors, consulting firm relationships. Often, the internal consultant has less ramp up time on a project due to familiarity with the corporation, and is able to guide a project through to implementation - a step that would be too costly if an external consultant was used.

Internal consulting groups are often formed around a number of practice areas. The more common areas are: organizational development, process management, information technology, design services, training and development. There are three potential problems. First, the internal consultant may not bring objectivity to the consulting relationship that an external firm can. Second, when the external consulting industry is strong it is increasingly difficult to find the required high calibre of consultant provided by consulting firms. Finally, when financial times get tough, often the internal consulting group is the first to face layoffs.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 10:56
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Hey, I have a question for practicing consultants. Are you normally credited for travel time? Is this billed to clients? What about delays in travel, are those charged to clients as well?

I ask because for most service industries, the amount of chargeable/creditable time is very important. It would be interesting to know if people that travel regularly and extensively are credited with the time they spend traveling.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 11:51
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pelihu
Hey, I have a question for practicing consultants. Are you normally credited for travel time? Is this billed to clients? What about delays in travel, are those charged to clients as well?

I ask because for most service industries, the amount of chargeable/creditable time is very important. It would be interesting to know if people that travel regularly and extensively are credited with the time they spend traveling.

I am working as an internal IT consultant for the past 2 years. Typically you dont bill the hours you travel neither the extra hours you sit in office to finish regular work. But if you work on weekends or are on call then you bill these hrs. If you travel to other client locations for official purpose then you are generally expected to reach there well in time to have normal working day..if it involves a lot of travel then you get to bill those hours but if its a place which is say 2 hrs from the one you work you normally travel early in morning work 8 hrs and travel back late in evening.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 13:45
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pelihu
Hey, I have a question for practicing consultants. Are you normally credited for travel time? Is this billed to clients? What about delays in travel, are those charged to clients as well?


I have traditionally worked on fixed price (not time & expense) projects, so my answer is a little bit irrelevant to this question. But I do report travel time, including delays, and us consultants are even asked to mark it as travel time.

Although this information is not necessarily relevant to my client, it is certainly relevant to my firm for two reasons:
- We track hours to make sure that our consultants are not working unreasonable hours (daily, weekly, or monthly). The presumption is that high hours reports are the fault of management, not the consultant, and management must work to make those hours more sustainable.
- Travel is understandably taxing, particularly over the long term. We track both hours spent working outside the home office as well as nights spent away from home. Consultants who travel extensively are considered priority for the next low-travel project.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 18:17
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pelihu
Hey, I have a question for practicing consultants. Are you normally credited for travel time? Is this billed to clients? What about delays in travel, are those charged to clients as well?


It varies across the board. A good friend worked at Accenture, and they had fixed fee engagements so he was never billing per hour. At my firm, we bill by the hour but it still varies. If the client is in bankruptcy (I work in turnaround management), we know the court won't approve the bill we submit for travel time. That always gets pulled out, but we submit the bill regardless.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 18:29
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pelihu
Hey, I have a question for practicing consultants. Are you normally credited for travel time? Is this billed to clients? What about delays in travel, are those charged to clients as well?

It varies across the board. A good friend worked at Accenture, and they had fixed fee engagements so he was never billing per hour. At my firm, we bill by the hour but it still varies. If the client is in bankruptcy (I work in turnaround management), we know the court won't approve the bill we submit for travel time. That always gets pulled out, but we submit the bill regardless.


Do you have to keep those irritating hour-by-hour timesheet entries as long as the firm stays in bankruptcy? I had to do that at a client... every hour I billed I had to track what I did. Evil.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 19:44
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rhyme
Do you have to keep those irritating hour-by-hour timesheet entries as long as the firm stays in bankruptcy? I had to do that at a client... every hour I billed I had to track what I did. Evil.


We track our time by the quarter hour for clients outside of bankruptcy, and by the tenth of an hour for those in bankruptcy. The court appointed trustee reviews all professional fee applications, and it's required by the tenth of an hour.

What's funny is it makes our time recording less accurate, because you don't want them trying to match up detailed time logs with the person you said you're in a meeting with, or the client. One of many examples of good intended but very poor legislation.
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 20:53
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Add me to the M/C bandwagon. I hope to join a prestigous M/C firm after I finish my MBA from a (hopefully :roll:) prestigous B-school. This internal-consulting thing also seems pretty nice. I have a few questions for some of you practising consultants:


1. Does age play an important role when M/C companies recruit on campus? Would a 30 year old MBA be offered a role as say, a Manager/Partner and a 26 year old MBA be offered a role as a BA/Associate ?

2. If one were to move away from McK, BCG and Bain, what are the other consulting firms that are elite/trans-elite?

3. Most people say that consultants just restate the obvious using 'business jargon'. Is this true?

Rhyme, don't get me wrong, but after going through your posts I couldn't help but get the feeling that M/Cs do a lot of..... well.....nothing. Once again, this is my perception. So please correct me if I am wrong. I'm just trying to figure out if this is what I realy want to be doing post-MBA. I was under the impression that M/C consultants help companies take decisions that involve huge changes to the organizations (eg. setting up shop in a new country, entering into a new line of business, taking measures to cut costs, etc). So I need a reality check now! Thanks!

- Kripal
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Down On Consulting 21 Mar 2007, 23:33
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kripalkavi
1. Does age play an important role when M/C companies recruit on campus? Would a 30 year old MBA be offered a role as say, a Manager/Partner and a 26 year old MBA be offered a role as a BA/Associate ?
All MBA graduates enter at the same level (Associate). Age is not an issue, although older candidates may look better because of more work experience.

kripalkavi
3. Most people say that consultants just restate the obvious using 'business jargon'. Is this true?
No, my colleagues and I provide high value-add deliverables that include actionable recommendations based on best practices. We also provide robust next steps to help our clients move the needle in a way that revolutionizes their business. The takeaway from all of this (at 30,000 feet, anyway) is that we develop a synergistic relationship with our clients that leverages their core competencies and our IP to deliver a compelling value proposition.

kripalkavi
Rhyme, don't get me wrong, but after going through your posts I couldn't help but get the feeling that M/Cs do a lot of..... well.....nothing.
You call that last paragraph of mine nothing?

kripalkavi
I was under the impression that M/C consultants help companies take decisions that involve huge changes to the organizations (eg. setting up shop in a new country, entering into a new line of business, taking measures to cut costs, etc).

Seriously, I have done all of the above with various Fortune 500 clients. I'm sure that Rhyme's done some of that too, if not all of it. Honestly, I think this perception comes from the consultants who march into an organization and think, "You guys are so dumb...the answer's right there." We proceed to get frustrated when that obvious solution isn't implemented immediately. It's often because corporate culture is hard to change. Can you imagine changing the way your family talks, acts, thinks? Take that challenge and multiply by, oh, a thousand. And throw in the disownership of a few siblings (or a few thousand).

Consultants are the doctors of business (and sometimes, the psychiatrists). We are good at what we do. If we weren't, then companies wouldn't shell out millions of dollars for us. If you think the market is inefficient, or that Fortune 500 CEOs are dumb...then what's the point of a MBA, again? :wink:
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 00:42
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usctrojan098
kripalkavi
3. Most people say that consultants just restate the obvious using 'business jargon'. Is this true?
No, my colleagues and I provide high value-add deliverables that include actionable recommendations based on best practices. We also provide robust next steps to help our clients move the needle in a way that revolutionizes their business. The takeaway from all of this (at 30,000 feet, anyway) is that we develop a synergistic relationship with our clients that leverages their core competencies and our IP to deliver a compelling value proposition.


This is your evidence of not using "business jargon", or was this a joke?

1. high value-add
2. deliverables
3. actionable
4. best practices
5. robust next steps
6. revolutionize
7. takeaway
8. synergistic
9. leverages
10. core competencies
11. IP
12. compelling value proposition.

:lol:
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 02:25
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usctrojan098
You call that last paragraph of mine nothing?

Like I said, I didn't mean to offend anybody. I was just getting a feel of what M/C is all about and making sure that I am not trying to get into something I might not enjoy later on. Thank you very muuch usctrojan098 for that informative reply. I do agree when you say that the work-life balance is primarily in the hands of the individual and not the organization per-se. Can you give me some links to 'A Day in the life of....' kind of resources for Management Consultants?

pelihu
This is your evidence of not using "business jargon", or was this a joke?
1. high value-add
2. deliverables
3. actionable
4. best practices
5. robust next steps
6. revolutionize
7. takeaway
8. synergistic
9. leverages
10. core competencies
11. IP
12. compelling value proposition.
:lol:


lol! You took the words right outta my mouth!
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 05:34
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Quote:
1. Does age play an important role when M/C companies recruit on campus? Would a 30 year old MBA be offered a role as say, a Manager/Partner and a 26 year old MBA be offered a role as a BA/Associate ?

Nope. Associate or bust. There may be some exceptions made in extra-ordinary circumstances, but 98% of the time, no.

Quote:
2. If one were to move away from McK, BCG and Bain, what are the other consulting firms that are elite/trans-elite?

There are a lot of well respected ones. Booz Allen, Accenture, KPMG, Mercer, London Economics Consulting Group, AT Kearney, Monitor, Towers Perrin, E&Y... Deloitte, etc. Theres probably more. I'm sure theres a list on vault.com somewhere.


Quote:
3. Most people say that consultants just restate the obvious using 'business jargon'. Is this true?

Harldy. Consultants utilize best practices to synthesize data into actionable result oriented recommendations. We leverage internal intellectual property and due diligence skills to develop best of breed industry practices across our core competencies. By initiating our drill down efforts from the helicopter view, we level set the issue and and tackle low hanging fruit first. In so doing, we dial in the right areas and ensure our final deliverables bring value add to the table.

Quote:
I was under the impression that M/C consultants help companies take decisions that involve huge changes to the organizations (eg. setting up shop in a new country, entering into a new line of business, taking measures to cut costs, etc).
- Kripal


I dont feel 100% comfortable talking about my projects online, but I'll tell you I've worked on everything you mentioned there with the exception of entering a new line of business. My firms did that too, I just didnt happen to get that project. I worked on one cost cutting project that spanned every single continent on earth and over 400 facilities. I worked on another one that spanned over 500 offices, but all domestic. Just keep in mind that not every single project you get will be interesting or sexy.

As for what consultants actually provide? I take a slightly more cynical approach... I think that in some cases, consultants add a lot of value because they bring a fresh perspective, but I also think that consultants are more often than not hired not for their expertise but because they provide plausible deniability. If things go good, "hey It was my idea to bring in Deloitte". If things go to the crapper, "Look, Deloitte told us to do it."

As for the business jargon thing... I wrote mine off the top of my head... its scary how many words are shared between what I wrote and what he wrote, isnt it? :)
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 05:59
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It is possible to get into a major management consultancy firm at 34? Is age a recruitment criteria?
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 06:28
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gauravgoyal_g
It is possible to get into a major management consultancy firm at 34? Is age a recruitment criteria?


Your age wont be a concern. Mostly because they dont really care, but really because it would be illegal if they did.
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Down On Consulting Updated on: 22 Mar 2007, 07:15
Originally posted by 09App on 22 Mar 2007, 06:55.
Last edited by 09App on 22 Mar 2007, 07:15, edited 1 time in total.
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gauravgoyal_g
It is possible to get into a major management consultancy firm at 34? Is age a recruitment criteria?


I was asking the same question at 25, and the answer was no. They tend to take people right out of undergrad or business school. Instead I found a small firm focused on turnaround management and absolutely love it. Point being, there are many more small consulting firms out there than you would imagine, and you'd probably enjoy working at some of them. They may be easier to break into given your background and their focus, so be open to that idea. It can be a segway into a larger firm later if you'd like, with some consulting experience now on your resume.

I don't work for a large firm though, so someone may correct me on this.

Edit: I know several people that came out of business school with no experience, and got jobs at major firms. They weren't 34, but close.
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Down On Consulting 22 Mar 2007, 06:57
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i meant getting into a MC firm after completing MBA at 34 without any prior MC experience...
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