Value of a Brand name MBA. Is a Top 10 MBA Worth It? I am starting this thread as an in-depth exploration to figure out whether an MBA from a Top 10 school is better than an MBA from a Top 20 or Top 50, and the ultimate goal is to quantify it as exactly as possible. I am planning to update and add to this post and thus welcome any arguments, suggestions, and challenges! The basic question I want to find an answer to is: If I get into a Top 20 program with a full scholarship, is it a better investment than a Top 15 or M7 without a scholarship? Contents Rankings Scholarship – What Is it Actually? BB’s school ranking What Is the Value of the Brand? Do higher ranked school alums make more money? How long can a school brand name be leveraged? Does it have diminishing returns? Can you off-set the value of the brand with something else? Cost of the MBA Special Situations Perspective on Money Personal Financial Situation Intangible Value Conclusion Rankings – What is Top 10, Top 20, etc? We have a whole collection of all rankings here . However, I tend to rely on the US news rankings for the US programs. It is not a perfect measuring stick but it does take quite a few things into account and I generally tend to agree with them. For global rankings, it is a bit harder and I find it hard to rely on FT for much though LBS and INSEAD are generally accepted global Top 10 programs. Any time I refer to a Top 10, you can assume, I am referring to the US Top 10. Scholarship – What Is it Actually? Need based scholarships some schools such as HBS and Stanford provide only need-based scholarships, so if you got admitted and cannot fund your MBA, they will help out to an extent. Merit based scholarships – this is a more interesting kind. These are often limited only to the US citizens/permanent residents within the top 10 group. The concept gets pretty complicated if you take the whole game theory into account. When a school feels that you are a great enough candidate to have in the program but feels that unless you receive a scholarship, you won’t attend. This may be for several reasons – e.g. a great applicant but from a poor country so unless they offer you a scholarship, there is no chance you will enroll (this often ties admission and scholarship decision). Another reason would be to entice you to attend the school due to your background, stats, and overall positive impact that you will have on the program (e.g. you will help raise the average GMAT score, likely get a great job, likely impress other classmates, and have a positive and unique contribution to the discussions). This is a reason schools often ask during interview – what other schools are you applying to. If they know they are the highest rated/ranked school on your list, they don’t have to offer you a scholarship; they are a reach school for you, and if you get admitted you will likely enroll (remember that yield rate is an important ranking element; the fewer admitted people convert into matriculations, the worse the school will rank). However, they have to keep in mind that other schools may offer you a scholarship – they know what candidates have been offered scholarships historically and chances if another school trying to steal you with their money, so if you are a candidate they believe is likely to get a scholarship in another closely ranked school, they may offer something as well. This is why you often see people get scholarships from all schools they applied to and then others not get offered anything at all anywhere. Another aspect of merit scholarships is that they tend to be reserved for specific groups/demographics and it is hard to get one if you are a member of an overrepresented group (you know who you are). Named/Special Scholarships – schools often have other smaller/specific scholarships and fellowships such as the Polski fellowship at Booth that is given to entrepreneurs and applicants from Eastern Europe though it appears it is no longer listed on Booth’s website. These are specific and may change some of the numbers. The trick, often, is that you have to apply for them each year and while you get it during the first year, you may not get it afterwards if a better candidate appears. List of Named scholarships is here ]. Usually, the better ranked the school is, the larger is the list of named scholarships/fellowships. If you receive a scholarship , it is a very positive and reassuring message – that means the school really wants you and is willing to forego some of the money to have you attend. It is really one of the easiest and best ways to earn a lot of money in a short period of time and not be taxed on it BB’s School Rankings I never realized that I was stereotyping but I was. Here is what apparently my mind has arrived to, subconsciously, over the years in terms of Bschool tiers: Tier 1: HBS, Stanford, and Wharton – I feel these are absolutes and everyone either wants to get in here or wished they did. As I wrote in one of the posts, it may be my personal obsession with being the best or wanting to be #1 that is driving me to place such high value on these 2 schools but I openly do; think of as a luxury good/product that is very exclusive, like a low-digit license plate in Dubai or an 8888 phone number in Hong Kong Tier 2: M7 – realistically the best a mortal can do (this is just 4 remaining schools: Kellogg, Booth, Sloan, and Columbia) Tier 3: T15 Tier 4: Top 25 Tier 4: Top 50 Tier 5: Everything else My Tradeoff Matrix: How to read: Columns are the more prestigious program you would give up. Rows are the lower-ranked program you would take if the scholarship hits the threshold. Take with scholarship ↓ \ Give up → HBS/GSB/Wharton M7 Top 15 Top 25 M7 Full ride only if strong WE or entrepreneurship focus Top 15 No switch 75% Top 25 No switch No switch 75% Top 50 No switch No switch No switch 75% Obviously you have a matrix like this in your head – you probably would not trade HBS for a top 50 school with a full scholarship or maybe you would – try creating your own (and share it here too if not scared) What Is the Value of the Brand? This is one of the most critical questions of this post – what does a brand-name MBA give you that you would not get in an average top 50-ranked program? It is very important to understand and evaluate – many people don’t get it really because it is not a whole lot when you look at it on the surface: Recruiting – first and biggest value. Everything during your bschool experience will be around recruiting and alas rejection, very similar to the whole application process. Getting some help from the school’s career resources, on-campus recruiting events, and alum informational interviews will go a long way to help with options and giving you first dibs at the most competitive positions. Here is why recruiting is key: The better the school’s brand, the better employers come to campus or invite students to apply for internships or jobs. How much is it worth to you to simplify recruiting and internship-search process? Do you want to be rejected in a bunch of places or given a chance/interview with some cool employers? The better the school’s brand, the more exclusive it tends to be, and the more helpful/close-knit the alumni are (more likely to hear back when you reach out). How much is it worth? Again, hard to estimate but with a better-ranked school you are likely to have alumni in better companies/spots You will more likely get an interview when cold-calling or cold-emailing your resume on Linked In to potential employers. This will be very helpful to those looking to change industries, who have no relevant work experience to demonstrate their worth/skills. Note that some companies (e.g. MBB as well as Goldman, Citi, or Morgan Stanley) recruit only at certain schools (e.g. top 10 or 25 for example) and then leave just a handful of spots for the other top 20 schools to catch all those who took the money instead of attending the higher ranked schools. It is competitive overall but much more so for the less ranked programs – you need a great GMAT score and solid relevant work experience to qualify) Higher Caliber Classmates . The support network you will build while at school will be based on your classmates. A substantial portion of your learning will be done in small groups and having smart classmates helps a lot – this is actually one of the areas students and alums consistently rank their programs as the low point of experience. Your classmates will determine how fast, much, and well you learn. They will make your experience enriched or miserable. I would argue a good class is better than a good professor. Professors switch every few months but the class goes for 2 years Better professors Tighter Alums (mentioned above) Better resources/endowment/facilities (not always but often true) and a greater choice of named scholarships Bragging rights & school pride This is really it. It does not look like much on the surface but these add up to “the best 2 years of my life” or “when can I be done with this”. I have had a unique experience of attending a study abroad program and have experienced 2 tiers of programs and a set of students from about 10 different Top 20 business schools. It was a meaningful difference and though the sample was fairly small, it was a difference of standards and expectations. You will have better experience and better chances with the better ranked school. Do higher ranked school alums make more money? This is a chicken and an egg problem. The applicants matriculating into the top programs tend to be a higher caliber folks already making good money. When they graduate, they naturally increase their salary, making even more money. You get the idea. Rankings are closely tied to salary after graduation and employment stats – there is an 85% correlation between salary amount and ranking of a school. Schools do look at your compensation history to determine if you will help or weigh them down in terms of your earning potential after graduation – they are interested to have you employed as fast and as lucratively as possible after graduation as that will boost their ranking, attracting better applicants, which in turn will make ranking even better – it is a never-ending cycle. But there is a big BUT – higher ranked schools have better access to the most competitive and lucrative opportunities, thus having the first dibs at higher-paying jobs, which while does not make them get these positions automatically, makes getting it much harder for someone in the top 30 or top 50 ranked school. Though not always the case, employers and recruiters do know what the average graduating salary is for your class and they will make their offer within that range and it will be hard for you to argue against those facts. Something I have used in my salary negotiations was bring up salaries of my classmates and point out to my employer (hospitality industry is not known for high salaries) that my compensation needs to be at a certain level to be in line with other folks I went to bschool with (of course I used the higher range in my argument but it worked and I got a good raise when my promotion came due). Keep this in mind. How long can a school brand name be leveraged? Does it have diminishing returns? The answer is yes, as you progress with your career and see graduation in a rear-view mirror 5 or 10 years later, when your promotions, jobs, and opportunities are based on your reputation in the industry rather which school you have attended, the MBA brand plays a much smaller role when a new CFO is selected; it will be based on your performance, your reputation, and results. As I did say just above, it does help to have a higher average salary of your class to help with negotiating your compensation and promotion; however, 10 years out, it is likely not going to be a powerful driver. In turn, having a shiny MBA brand, and lack of results/performance 5-10 years later may cast a shadow (you went to Wharton and all you are doing is a Financial analyst – what’s wrong with you?), so getting a shiny MBA also comes with some expectations to live up to. This is the painful reality some folks face when they return to their native countries due to not finding the right job/H1B issues. Everyone knows, coming back was likely not by choice. Can you off-set the value of the brand with something else? Yes – for every attack there is a defense. Your professional network has an opportunity to provide you wiht an ROI. If you are not switching industries or you have strong connections within certain industries (family, colleagues, friends, etc), the brand is not as important because you can leverage your previous connections, your knowledge of the industry, and your stronger experience in securing job interviews or internships. Often this has more value and carries more weight than a school's name. I have seen many times people hired simply because they came recommended and their resume looked exactly like the other 50. It makes sense from the hiring standpoint as well - it is less risk if you hire a recommended candidate. Keep your network engaged and primed while you are in bschool. Second, if you have substantial work experience, achievements, or other credentials that will help as well to stand out/compete with candidates from higher ranked programs. Third, if you are planning to start a business or have connections to secure interviews/consideration for candidacy, the advantage of getting a brand-name MBA will be diminished. Something else I have seen people with really bad school brands do (i.e. no name French programs) is enroll into executive course series from a highly ranked school – e.g. enroll into negotiations program at Wharton or HBS leadership series for a week. It is a bit cheesy as everyone can see they are trying to off-set their previously low brand MBA experience and when they put HBS or Wharton as “Education” on the resume or LinkedIn, I cringe, but it serves a purpose. Keep in mind that it will set you back about $10K – quite a price for just a week of instruction. (Schools know what you are doing too and they milk it, or rather milk you). So, if you are saving $20K with a scholarship to a lower-ranked school, it is not really worth bothering. International Recognition If you are ever planning to work outside of the United States, then some of the choices/priorities will be different. For example, everyone knows Harvard and Stanford. Many know Princeton (no business school though), MIT (for engineering), and Yale. A few know Wharton but after that the name recognition really drops off. Granted, if you are applying for an MNC office, the boss there will likely be from Europe or US, but they may be from Australia or Asia, and the value of a name when you meet with local partners or folks not well aware of the western business school hierarchy, you may as well have attended an online MBA from University of Phoenix. Nobody will know what UNC or Kelley, IE, HEC, or Anderson, or even Ross Michigan is. A few spots on the ranking ladder may not matter a whole lot in the US, but they are day and night in other regions. Cost of the MBA Yes, there is tuition. But what many ignore is the living expenses when they think that School A is $100K vs. School B at $0 for example. It does not work that way. You have the living expenses, additional school expenses, opportunity cost, and financing costs. You can try our MBA Payback Interactive Calculator OR MBA ROI Calculator by the way (very detailed) Here is how your very simple budget will look like: School Comparison School A School B Tuition $100,000 $0 Living expenses $40,000/yr $35,000/yr Additional school expenses $5,000 $5,000 Opportunity cost $50,000/yr (not included in calc) $50,000/yr (not included in calc) Financing costs $70K @5% APR or $19,000 $20K @6% APR or $6,600 Any offsets, such as Fellowship, etc -$10,000/yr -$5,000/yr Total: $194,000 $76,600 As you can see, there is no “free” option above and the difference is not $0 vs. $100,000. It is rather $190K vs $80K – a scary amount. I am frankly not a huge fan of the opportunity cost calculation in there since it is not real money and is equal in both cases, so I often write it down just for the sake of modeling but don’t include in the final calculation. Very Important – School Budget : you will need money from savings, family, or somewhere other than loans while in BSchool. You can borrow only up to the cost of tuition and living expenses. The estimate for living expenses is modest and always under-budgeted. For one, it is a budget made to look attractive, for two, it is only budgeting living expenses while attending school, so it excludes the 3- 4 month summer break. Hopefully you will have an internship that pays well but depending on your industry (e.g. entertainment, movie, nonprofit) – it may not. Second, the budget only includes school-related living expenses and does not include any fun events, class trip to Vegas, or ski weekend that is really helpful to build relationships within the class. You don’t want to miss out on those Third, the loan money is disbursed right around when the school starts and in 2 installments (in case you are new to student loans); if you front-load any expenses in your second year or second semester, you will have to wait for some time. Fourth, we always blow budget due to something unexpected, so it is good to have a reserve. Special Situations Everyone is special and I am going to address some of the most common situations/arguments I have encountered: I am going for industry X and this top 20 school is ranked much higher in X than a top 10 school. It is a good argument and you are right. A good niche specialty school can do a lot more for you than a general higher-ranked school. Duke is a good example of a Healthcare-strong program and Booth is finance. However keep in mind that many applicants (I would say over 2/3, change their industry/focus/plans after the first year); thus you are more likely to change than to stick to your plan, statistically speaking. MBA for Entrepreneurs – traditionally the advice is to not get one and not set yourself back 2 years and a bunch of money only to get into debt before starting a business. As an example, Microsoft, FB, and many other famous (too famous perhaps) entrepreneurs dropped out of school when their idea showed promise, proving that the idea is stronger than typical education (FedEx founder got a “C” on his business plan for FedEx when he was doing his MBA). My advice to you would be to seek lower debt levels and even though many aim to work for a few years before starting their own venture, the end goal is the venture, thus making recruiting and all advantages of higher-ranked programs less important. Older Applicants – you probably have a pretty good idea what you are going to do and don’t need my advice, so do it. Perspective on Money $100,000 is a large amount to spend, esp. if you come from a country other than UAE or Switzerland. However, a degree is different from a car or most other purchases you have made because it is an investment. While it is true that its highest value is derived after graduation when you look to make your first impression, it will remain with you throughout your entire career and can serve as an “insurance” should your career run in trouble. However, compare it some purchases you will be making later (being a number of years out of business schools and with some work experience, I can tell you that with a family there are quite a few other expenses I never imagined while in bschool): Toyota Sienna AWD minivan will cost you $40,000 plus tax; a luxury sedan is about as much or double that for a Tesla. A kid will cost over $200,000 over the 18 years they will spend pestering you in your home, which, your home, in turn, will likely cost you over $1M if you happen to live in a large metropolitan area (you Tippie grads are safe with this one). If take into consideration currently low interest rates and eventual inflation, a 10 or 20-year student loan, money is fairly cheap. Another Money Perspective at this would be looking at the $100K from the retirement perspective – take a look at comparing your retirement horizon (I know it is really far away) but 40 years later, what would the 100K mean to you? If you were able to save the entire 100K and put into retirement savings, probably, would allow you to retire 2 year earlier. That’s huge but then most of us would not put 100K into savings. Instead we would accelerate an otherwise deferred purchase, buy a bigger house, or splurge on a vacation we would be lucky if a third of this amount actually makes it into savings. Have you noticed how a few small charges on a credit card add up to thousands of dollars and then how big paychecks seem to add up to so little? The key to saving is limiting your spending and having the discipline to restrain yourself. If you are a penny pincher, you will likely choose a scholarship program as otherwise you will feel guilty. If you are a spender, it probably does not matter which program you attend as you will spend most anyway and in that case may as well invest into a degree that will hold its value and can be leveraged over the lifetime. Tuition Cost: Would it make a difference if you got a 50% scholarship? Many of your fellow alums did because they attended the program 5-10 years before you did. Tuition has gone up significantly in the last 20 years, and esp. in business schools. There is of course talk of a bubble in college tuition but that has not yet happened in the business schools, as US programs continue to push 2-year degrees instead of a typical 12-month programs in Europe. It is quite likely that in 5-10 years the cost will go up another 50% (that would be a 33% discount to earn your degree now). Personal Financial Situation If you are carrying 100K from undergrad, I would not recommend you taking on another 100K in grad school loans. It will be a burden that may get too heavy and the APR rate will likely be higher. The compound risk is above/beyond my comfort level. Consider a car that has old tires – there is a chance one may fail you but you have a spare. The risk of getting stranded is very low. Now consider a car with all new tires, but your spare is flat. The risk of getting stranded is again very low. Now consider a car with old tires and no spare – that’s suddenly much riskier. If you have a substantial financial obligation, I would strongly suggest to you taking a scholarship – that will reduce financial stress (everyone stresses about money in bschool as it is always more expensive than expected). Intangible Value – I feel Harvard or Stanford (sorry Wharton grads) deserve an extra “credit” and a mental “best of all” value, meaning I personally would have attended H or S MBA instead of attending a UNC or Fuqua for example with a full scholarship. Primarily the justification I would give to my wife and children who would be asking why the hell did I spend their college fund on my MBA is that I got the best there was and money was not a consideration in that case (this is often the case when we choose safety products; you probably don’t want to save $10 or $100 or $1,000 and skip changing breaks on your car). In any case, other people (i.e. employers) also often consider Stanford and Harvard to be in a class of their own and even getting into Stanford or Harvard, let alone graduating actually is sufficient for them to notice you or spark a conversation. How much is that worth? It is hard to quantify. Conclusion: When most say MBA, they mean opportunities and change. However, MBA also means risk and there is a tradeoff between risk and reward. Your decision is likely based on how much risk you are already carrying, and your risk aversion/adventure level or how much you have to lose. I feel a full scholarship is often worth the trading down to a lower-ranked school. The only exception I am making is in case of Stanford and HBS and a few other special situations. However, whatever decision you make, make sure you are committed, and comfortable with it. You will likely not be able to undo it and live a second life. So once the decision is made, get as much money as you can, and prepare for 2 hard but very rewarding years. Good luck! Additional Resources/Alternate Opinions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaOq47fDwVw

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Value of a Top 10 MBA [Long Post]

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ak99

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06 Jun 2019, 14:03

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How would you compare sort of the tiers in between...say a Top 5 vs. a Top 10 or a M7 like Kellogg/Booth to a Tuck/Ross/Yale - which are close in rankings but still a tier apart.

whitman

For me, with no geographical or industry preference, I'd put the figure around a 50% scholarship to drop from tier to tier. For example, I wanted to go to Haas, Anderson, or Foster, and had in my head that the roughly equivalent point for them would be no scholarship at Haas = ~$40,000 at Anderson = full ride at Foster. It turned out I got denied at Haas and Foster but got $60,000 at Anderson, but that was the matrix I had established for myself.

Pardon the delay - business trip got in the way.
Thank you for being open and taking a position. The more I have been applying some kind of a system, the more I have been wanting to change it but the new US News rankings have really messed the whole thing up. One of the ideas is to run trade off analysis on alums/graduates and check their perception and then do the same for applicants and run 10-20 simulations on each, establishing the exact value and position of each school.

You have definitely motivated me to complicate the system:
I like the concept of diminishing returns (less linear system such as a diminishing difference such as:
HBS vs Top 10 - 100% scholarship to be on par but perhaps only 75 or 50% to be on par with top 5.
Top 5 vs. Top 15 - 50% scholarship to be on par (which means each position is wroth 5% of scholarship)
Top 15 vs. Top 25 - 40% scholarship (each position is worth 4% of scholarship money)
Top 25 vs. Top 35 - 20% scholarship (each position is worth 2% of scholarship money)
Top 35 vs. Top 45 - 12%, and so on.

Just need to build a chart and perhaps come up with an equation.
Then there are variables such as staying within the same industry or targeting a region the school is strong - that should be a reduction of 10% scholarship perhaps to make it equitable (anyone feels it should be more)?
If staying within the same industry, then probably another 10% reduction?

Thanks for your ideas and your Anderson post - they are this a better post.

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08 Jun 2019, 16:02

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I’ve done a little bit of analysis about choices other people have made which is probably more relevant than what I think in my castle in the clouds

Out of those who got admitted to HBS or Stanford and Everradi of other top 10 programs with the full scholarship, all have gone to Harvard or Stanford. Some obviously have received assistance but the majority have not received any funding at HBS or GSB. That leads me to believe that if the top two value is so high in the minds of applicants, the separation between the top five and the top 10 Mail should be fairly meaningful. I doubt it’s at the level of a full scholarship but I think people would trade spots for a 50% scholarship to attend a top 5 program such as Booth or Kellogg or Sloan vs Fuqua or Ross or Yale.

However, we have not done this analysis yet. Will ask Narenn to pull the data and share what he finds out.

PS. I feel Tuck has enough unique aspects that it seems to draw a following. Kind of like Tesla so May have a diff result.

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13 Jun 2019, 05:21

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However, we have not done this analysis yet. Will ask Narenn to pull the data and share what he finds out.

Sure bb. I just did a survey of users who received at least one admit from each of the following two school groups: Group1 - Booth/MIT/Kellogg & Group2 - Tuck/Duke/Ross/Haas/Columbia. I found 67 cases of such applicants in our database from 2017 to 2019.

Findings of the survey are interesting. While 67% of the admits chose their school on its brand value, surprisingly 22% preferred their Fit with the school over school's reputation or scholarship money.

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14 Jun 2019, 11:48

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Thanks Narenn,

To summarize your table:
10% Chose lower-ranked school with a scholarship
22% Chose a lower-ranked school without scholarship (perhaps data is imperfect here)
68% Chose a higher-ranked school

Sample size: 67 applicants from 2018

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International Recognition

If you are ever planning to work outside of the United States, then some of the choices/priorities will be different. For example, everyone knows Harvard and Stanford. Many know Princeton (no business school though), MIT (for engineering), and Yale. A few know Wharton but after that the name recognition really drops off. Granted, if you are applying for an MNC office, the boss there will likely be from Europe or US, but they may be from Australia or Asia, and the value of a name when you meet with local partners or folks not well aware of the western business school hierarchy, you may as well have attended an online MBA from University of Phoenix. Nobody will know what UNC or Kelley, IE, HEC, or Anderson, or even Ross Michigan is. A few spots on the ranking ladder may not matter a whole lot in the US, but they are day and night in other regions.

While the entire post is valueable, this specific point really cant be overstated!

In my opinion, this is a big draw for schools like Judge/Said or Yale SOM.
While the rankings might vary, I (as a European interested in working internationally) would very likely pick the respective schools over HEC, IE, IESE or Ross, Booth & Kellog.

While I don´t want to claim that any of the mentioned schools is better or worse, I personally would put a huge premium on brand that is known on both sides of the Atlantic.

Regards,
Chris

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14 Jun 2019, 15:20

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I agree! If you’re wearing a Yale T-shirt versus booth or Kellogg in Africa or Southeast Asia, everyone will know Yale but only if you will recognize Booth or Kellogg. It’s smart that Yale did not come up with a name for its program and simply kept it as Yale SOM.

Theoretically speaking, it is interesting to look at some of the otherwise well-known universities that have started MBA programs. Yale did well - they have been able to break the Top 10 last year, though lost it this year. It’s also very interesting to see the volume of applicants to Yale versus similarly a ranked program at Ross or Duke. I’ll have to pull up the stats on the computer in a bit but last time I remember looking it was almost double! That makes it pretty hard to count for that variance in rankings and popularity.

I would add a few less famous to your list: Tepper program part of CMU, Mendoza, part of Notre Dame, John Hopkins MBA (famous medical school) has somewhat struggled to lift the program off the ground.

The most interesting is the Princeton university. Always ranked with in the top five in the United States for undergrad, which still has not started their own MBA program. I guess there is some admiration that they haven’t been tempted by the allure of the MBA.

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15 Jul 2019, 02:48

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Thank you for the post! I'll be checking this out when I'm determining which B-schools to apply to in the next year or two.

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21 Feb 2020, 01:58

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whitman

I'm curious, bb, how do you define the Top 10 and Top 20? They fluctuate every year and vary between rankings. So you're saying, for example, you'd only take Anderson over Haas if you had a full scholarship over Haas? And Darden over Tuck if you had a full scholarship at Darden? I am not convinced there's that much differentiation between the schools in the ~8 to ~16 range, nor between say Olin and Owen (Owen was 27 last year)

Thanks for reading and bring up 2 very good points. The post i wrote was quite ambitious in the sense that it is hard to speak in absoluteness but I was so sick of wishy-washy answers that I really tried to make it as concrete as possible:
1. Rankings - the latest release has been very non-typical and has undermined reputation of US news. It thew a wrench into my world and I am sticking with last year's rankings that US News confusingly titled 2016 and this year's are 2017.
2. Some of the wording was vague and I have adjusted it to read that better - in the sense that "Definitely would trade a top 10 MBA for a top 20 spot with a full scholarship" as opposed to "would only switch for a full scholarship as opposed to partial" The only one situation I can see is someone who had MBB or iBanking dream since they were 5 but not everyone in Top 5 gets those spots/jobs. It is a big gamble to play.

The question remains what is a Top 10 or a Top 20 and frankly it is a lot less clear now than a few weeks ago when I wrote this post because Top 20 was Anderson and Johnson and Top 10 was Booth, Kellogg and Tuck, but now Booth is #2, Olin is #21 and Stern is #20. So, how about we keep using last year's rankings or perhaps 5-year average...

What do you think? Do you have a table/matrix you would suggest?

I like the P&Q ranking a bit more than US News. I think it balances out the different methodologies quite well. My categorization would be similar to bb, but slightly different:

Tier 1: H/S
Tier 2: Established top 10: rest of M7 + Haas/Tuck
Tier 3: Established top 20: Fuqua, Darden, Ross, Yale, Johnson, Stern, Anderson, INSEAD, LBS (maybe IESE and IMD)
Tier 4: The rest

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22 Feb 2020, 11:30

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While I agree generally to your categories Wakanda92, I would argue that it depends on your goals. For example, I would pick Ross over Tuck for anything tech (which I did in 2018), and Stern over Tuck/Ross for banking. So while it is important to use these buckets when selecting schools, it is a whole another ball game to decide where you would actually go.

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22 Feb 2020, 11:38

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HEC is actually a pretty strong program in EU. Also Oxford and Cambridge have a strong brand that draws many international (non US) applicants.

There are also some regional schools in China and India that have been rising lately. Finally Canada has had a big boost no thanks to immigration policies or their perception. I don’t know I would yet include Rotman in Top 20 or Top 30 but it has a place somewhere... the rankings and positions of schools are shifting and this crazy year with protests in Hong Kong and Corona Virus are changing things even more.

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22 Feb 2020, 12:15

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I definitely agree on the oxbridge pull on non-US applicants. I knew an MBB guy here in SA who went to Said a few years ago. I was really surprised since it’s quite a new program.

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While I don't disagree that the MBA degree does indeed have value, I do feel that this value has been eroded over time and actually offers disproportionately more value to candidates from non-traditional backgrounds. Those coming from business backgrounds have to really reflect deeply on what they want to get out of the experience, lest it be a waste of time (and lost of $$$).

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25 Apr 2020, 23:17

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<snip>The most interesting is the Princeton university. Always ranked with in the top five in the United States for undergrad, which still has not started their own MBA program. I guess there is some admiration that they haven’t been tempted by the allure of the MBA.

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Princeton has ZERO graduate professional programs (law, medicine or business). Holding true to the value of the liberal arts education ...

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09 Aug 2020, 07:58

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I graduated from a top MBA program (one of Cornell, Ross, Duke) in the US a couple of years ago and have been working in the industry for a few years now. I didn't know many things at that time and perhaps my decision to apply to the US would have been very different if I had known what I do know now. Some of the things to consider while applying are

1. Does the school have no cosigner loans?
2. Age range that you fall in
3. Does your industry/target job post-MBA really require an MBA
4. Job prospects after MBA
5. Visa challenges to consider

I've gone through the entire circus, writing GMAT not once, but 5 times to cross the magic 700 and submitted my application in several rounds, with acceptances, waitlists and dings before getting into the school of my dreams. However, I would caution applicants to give this some serious thought before taking the plunge.

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09 Oct 2020, 09:28

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Interesting to see a different perspective that puts emphasis on considering T10-20 > T0-T10, obviously depending on the circumstances. Expected incomes between the two tiers are typically not substantial

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24 Mar 2021, 18:20

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Fantastic post. Definitely key to drive home the value of schools ranked in the 11-20 range. While there are a few niche career paths where a top 10 (or even m7) may be necessary, if you are looking to go MBB or IB, 11-20 will do just fine in helping you get there. This is especially true for those who gain significant scholarships for schools in the teens.

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27 Mar 2021, 12:04

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cav22dat

Yes... with a caveat that some schools fair a lot better than others in MBB recruiting when there is an MBB office on campus. UNC has this for example (which is a Top 20 school) but then Emory and Anderson do not. You need to do research with the current students and look at patterns. West coast schools generally do not place well into consulting (several reasons but one of them is the MBB offices are not on campus at Anderson, or even Stanford, or Haas, though they come to recruit) whereas Fuqua, Booth, and others have MBB offices on campus with recruiters there 4 days a week.

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31 Mar 2021, 12:49

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Should we be grouping Wharton in with rest of the M7? I feel like most people have taken Wharton over other M7s (with/without scholarships.) It's like the half way point between H/S and other M7s (in terms of rankings, PE/VC placements, etc.). It's not HSW for no reason

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31 Mar 2021, 13:06

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Rebell against Wharton?

I think they deserve some skepticism for not submitting data to the US news rankings. It was not above them really to submit and I don't know why a school would choose not to unless they have things to hide. It is just making it more suspicious.... as to including them or excluding, I think we can do what we want but it is for everyone else to consider how Wharton performed vs. other programs, which is a good exercise potentially (looking at their employment reports and other data that they may have released informally). I will have to go back and poke around - feel free to look at their employment data vs. others. I will be doing that as well.

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31 Mar 2021, 13:56

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Hahaha, definitely not excusing their behavior in this year's rankings! I was just looking historically, they seem to be clear #3 and still with a distinct gap above B/K/S/C. Their PE/VC placement in 2020 is 15% (vs. HBS's 22%). The next is Booth at 9%, Sloan/CBS at 5-6%. So there's still some advantage for W over the other M7s. Similarly, saw a Crunchbase article pop up recently where H/S obviously led in # of startups, but Wharton still had 2x number of startups as the next M7 (after accounting for class size).

This comment might ruffle some feathers from the other M7 supporters..