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As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella

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New post 31 Mar 2015, 00:29
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You're right, we could use "including" that way. (And by the way, that Bill Monroe problem is a really good one!) However, we'd need to use a comma first, as the GMAT does in "Bill Monroe." When you put an -ing word directly after a noun (with no comma), it modifies the noun itself. With a comma, it can modify the preceding clause. (In this case, "Bill inspired musicians.")

I know. English is crazy. Next try learning Russian . . . :shock:
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New post 31 Mar 2015, 00:40
DmitryFarber wrote:
You're right, we could use "including" that way. (And by the way, that Bill Monroe problem is a really good one!) However, we'd need to use a comma first, as the GMAT does in "Bill Monroe." When you put an -ing word directly after a noun (with no comma), it modifies the noun itself. With a comma, it can modify the preceding clause. (In this case, "Bill inspired musicians.")

I know. English is crazy. Next try learning Russian . . . :shock:

Hello DmitryFarber, actually as per Ron's comment, on the link below, "including" is an exception. Further, he says that in "comma + including", "including X" will become a prepositional phrase that describes the stuff preceding the comma:

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/forums/the-32-species-that-make-up-the-dolphin-family-t6878.html

Now, in view of your post and Ron's, I am beginning to wonder what Ron means by "stuff":(.

Yes, I am indeed a non-native, but after a lot of effort, am beginning to gain quite a comfort level in Sentence Correction. However, sentences and exceptions such as these, slightly throw me off.
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New post 31 Mar 2015, 01:01
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You know, Ron may have a point there. (He usually does! :) ) There are cases where ",including" doesn't modify the preceding clause, but rather serves to clarify the preceding noun. I use the word "clarify" rather than the more general "modify" because it is *still* different from "actors including." In these cases ", including X" functions as an aside to make it clear that a particular element is included in the group mentioned. Here's are two examples from recent NYT articles:

"China has jailed two men for selling military secrets, including hundreds of photos of the country's lone aircraft carrier, to foreign spies, state media reported on Friday, without saying which countries were buying them."

(That's a bit more tangled a sentence than you'd see on the GMAT, but the use of ", including" is pretty straightforward.)

"Thai authorities said on Monday they had found a group of 76 migrants from neighboring Myanmar, including six suspected Rohingya, in a sign that one of Asia's busiest smuggling routes is still thriving despite Bangkok's vow to stamp out trafficking."

(This is a bit more interesting. Notice that in this case, "including" skips over the preceding modifier ("from neighboring Myanmar") to modify "migrants." Also, on the GMAT we'd probably want a "that" between "Monday" and "they.")
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New post 08 Jun 2016, 08:57
kimmyg wrote:
As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including
(B) Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
(C) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several generations of actors whose ranks included
(D) one of the most influential artists in the American theater was Stella Adler, who trained several generations of actors including
(E) one of the most influential artists in the American theater, Stella Adler, trained several generations of actors whose ranks included

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if my folowing explanation is correct, the og explaanation is not good.

in A, who trained... refers to "artists" grammatically. this is not logic because this means many artise traine Marlon and Robert.
this is the only reason but terrible one for which a is wrong.
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New post 08 Jun 2016, 10:50
Noun modifiers such as "who" and "which" typically modify the immediately preceding noun. So technically, the sentence is saying that the American theater trained several generations of actors!

A is also wrong for "actors including," as discussed above.
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New post 05 Jun 2017, 17:31
Need suggestion: In case we tweak b option a bit then will it be correct?

Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
including
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New post 06 Jun 2017, 09:45
KanakGarg wrote:
Need suggestion: In case we tweak b option a bit then will it be correct?

Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
including

Dear KanakGarg,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

This is subtle. In the original question, (B) has many problems at many levels. One of these problems is the verb "includes" at the end. Your edit addresses this one issue, but none of the other issues. BTW, we would need a comma before the "including" phrase. Look at the whole sentence with your version of (B)

As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors, including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

Here we are on tricky ground. Is the sentence grammatically correct? Yes. Is this a well-written sentence? Hmm. There's something awkward about having the subject "hemmed" in by noun modifiers--we get [long noun modifier #1][subject][long noun modifier #2] before we ever get to a verb. There's something subtle that's "off" about this. It's not black-and-white wrong: maybe it could suffice as a correct answer on the GMAT SC, because sometimes the correct answer is less than ideal. This is definitely less than ideal.

Compare this to (C)
As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several generations of actors whose ranks included Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.
Wow! Sleek, elegant, direct. This design is essentially [long noun modifier][noun][verb][predicate][long verb modifier]. There is something elegant about this: the core of the sentence, the subject + verb, are right next to each other at the heart of the sentence, not five miles apart, as they are in (B). Choice (C) is a eminently satisfying and well-written sentence. Choice (B) is tepid by comparison.

My friend, I don't know whether English is your first language, but I recognize that these points are hard for non-native speakers to appreciate. Remember, the GMAT SC is not simply a test a grammar. The GMAT tests three strands: grammar, logic, and rhetoric--as well as their interaction. In particular, on harder SC questions, many incorrect answers are 100% grammatically correct but clearly wrong for other reasons; these answers are traps for students who pay attention only to grammar.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 01 Aug 2017, 06:22
Though my answer is correct, I couldn't figure out what exactly is wrong with A and B.
B is quite convincing.
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New post 04 Oct 2017, 03:06
rekhabishop wrote:
Though my answer is correct, I couldn't figure out what exactly is wrong with A and B.
B is quite convincing.



Hello rekhabishop,

I am not sure if your doubt still persists. Nonetheless, here is the explanation. :-)


As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.


Let's begin with understanding the meaning of the sentence.

The sentence presents some information about Stella Adler. She was an actress and an acting teacher. As a teacher, she was one of the most significant artists in the American theater. She trained many generations of actors. Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro are some of the actors from those generations.


Now let's talk about the errors in Choice A.

i. Logical error: The way the sentence is worded, it seems to suggest that the generations of actors include Brando and De Niro. This meaning is not correct. Actors cannot be generations.
If we consider that including associates with actors, then also the meaning conveyed by the sentence will not be appropriate because then the sentence will suggest that Adler trained Brando and De Niro.

ii. Grammatical error: The noun modifier who seems to refer to the preceding noun entity the American theater. The far-away noun modification of one of the most influential artists is not possible because the phrase in the American theater actually modifies the verb was. Hence, who cannot jump over this phrase.


Following are the errors in Choice B:

i. Same logic error as in Choice A.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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New post 04 Oct 2017, 07:10
egmat wrote:
rekhabishop wrote:
Though my answer is correct, I couldn't figure out what exactly is wrong with A and B.
B is quite convincing.



Hello rekhabishop,

I am not sure if your doubt still persists. Nonetheless, here is the explanation. :-)


As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.


Let's begin with understanding the meaning of the sentence.

The sentence presents some information about Stella Adler. She was an actress and an acting teacher. As a teacher, she was one of the most significant artists in the American theater. She trained many generations of actors. Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro are some of the actors from those generations.


Now let's talk about the errors in Choice A.

i. Logical error: The way the sentence is worded, it seems to suggest that the generations of actors include Brando and De Niro. This meaning is not correct. Actors cannot be generations.
If we consider that including associates with actors, then also the meaning conveyed by the sentence will not be appropriate because then the sentence will suggest that Adler trained Brando and De Niro.

ii. Grammatical error: The noun modifier who seems to refer to the preceding noun entity the American theater. The far-away noun modification of one of the most influential artists is not possible because the phrase in the American theater actually modifies the verb was. Hence, who cannot jump over this phrase.


Following are the errors in Choice B:

i. Same logic error as in Choice A.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi shraddha..

Just one more clarification needed.

In this sentence "in the theater" modifying was. Is it because it mentions a where part of adverbial modifier. Can we safely assume that whenever "in X" comes we can never jump the phrase for getting next possible noun.

Thanks

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New post 05 Oct 2017, 02:08
KanakGarg wrote:

Hi shraddha..

Just one more clarification needed.

In this sentence "in the theater" modifying was. Is it because it mentions a where part of adverbial modifier. Can we safely assume that whenever "in X" comes we can never jump the phrase for getting next possible noun.

Thanks

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Hello KanakGarg,

Thank you for your query. :-)


Yes, it is true that in the American theater answers the question where was Stella Adler influential. So this phrase is an action modifier and hence stops who from modifying a slightly far-away noun one of the most influential artists.


However, we cannot say that the prepositional phrase in X will always hinder such far-away noun modification. If this phrase modifies the same noun entity that the relative pronoun or the any other noun modifier, placed a little far away, is meant to modify, then the noun modifier can jump over the preceding noun to refer to the slightly far-away noun. For example:

The beehives in the region that store high-quality honey are protected by the villagers.

Needless to say that in the above-mentioned example sentence, the relative pronoun modifier that jumps over the preceding prepositional phrase in the region and modifies the slightly far-away noun The beehives because the preceding prepositional phrase in the region also modifies The beehives.


For more details, explanations, and examples, please review out one of the most famous articles named Noun Modifiers can Modify slightly far away noun in the following link:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/noun-modifiers-can-modify-slightly-far-away-noun-135868.html




Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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New post 14 Jan 2018, 13:07
Not convinced with the answer. Can you please explain why A is incorrect?
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New post 19 Jan 2018, 16:43
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reach_richa wrote:
Not convinced with the answer. Can you please explain why A is incorrect?




Hello reach_richa,

I will be glad to help you out with this one. :-)


In the phrase generation of actors including, the modifier including could refer to generations or to actors. Context drives this modification. But as such, neither of the two references make sense.


Generations include Marlon and Robert - non sensical.

Actors include Marlon and Robert - non sensical. This expression is used to communicate the meaning - X include X1, X2...- where X1 and X2 are parts of X. In this sentence, Marlon and Robert are actors. They are not parts of actors.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella  [#permalink]

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New post 23 Feb 2018, 01:57
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egmat wrote:
reach_richa wrote:
Not convinced with the answer. Can you please explain why A is incorrect?




Hello reach_richa,

I will be glad to help you out with this one. :-)


In the phrase generation of actors including, the modifier including could refer to generations or to actors. Context drives this modification. But as such, neither of the two references make sense.


Generations include Marlon and Robert - non sensical.

Actors include Marlon and Robert - non sensical. This expression is used to communicate the meaning - X include X1, X2...- where X1 and X2 are parts of X. In this sentence, Marlon and Robert are actors. They are not parts of actors.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi AjiteshArun ,GMATNinja , ChiranjeevSingh, mikemcgarry ,egmat , sayantanc2k, RonPurewal ,DmitryFarber , other experts - please enlighten

The National Fitness Test consists mostly of body-weight exercises, including sit-ups, push-ups, and chin-ups.
Comma+Including is used -
* It modifies the preceding noun
* It should give a list of some, but not all of that noun.

1.Is there a difference between the usage of comma+ including and including(without a preceding comma)? -- normally for Verb-ing modifiers the presence of comma leads to modification of the preceding action whereas, without the comma, the verb-ing modifies the preceding noun.

2. How do we decide whether verb-ing ( including ) modifies actors or the phrase several generations of actors ? I think it will depend on the context (what follows including )
In option A including follows Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro(examples of actors) . So doesn't it make sense?


(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including ---
Who illogically refers to American theater, but can't who refer to the phrase "one of the most influential artists in the American theater" since who can only modify people and American theater isn't a person.

In the official example stated in below link, we use context(Susan Huntington Dickinson can't be written) and grammar (SV disagreement and which can't refer to people) to allow which to refer to Noun + Prep phrase

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

https://gmatclub.com/forum/emily-dickin ... 10142.html
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New post 25 Feb 2018, 22:17
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Skywalker18 wrote:
Hi AjiteshArun ,GMATNinja , ChiranjeevSingh, mikemcgarry ,egmat , sayantanc2k, RonPurewal ,DmitryFarber , other experts - please enlighten

The National Fitness Test consists mostly of body-weight exercises, including sit-ups, push-ups, and chin-ups.
Comma+Including is used -
* It modifies the preceding noun
* It should give a list of some, but not all of that noun.

1.Is there a difference between the usage of comma+ including and including(without a preceding comma)? -- normally for Verb-ing modifiers the presence of comma leads to modification of the preceding action whereas, without the comma, the verb-ing modifies the preceding noun.

2. How do we decide whether verb-ing ( including ) modifies actors or the phrase several generations of actors ? I think it will depend on the context (what follows including )
In option A including follows Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro(examples of actors) . So doesn't it make sense?


(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including ---
Who illogically refers to American theater, but can't who refer to the phrase "one of the most influential artists in the American theater" since who can only modify people and American theater isn't a person.

In the official example stated in below link, we use context(Susan Huntington Dickinson can't be written) and grammar (SV disagreement and which can't refer to people) to allow which to refer to Noun + Prep phrase

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

https://gmatclub.com/forum/emily-dickin ... 10142.html


Hi Skywalker18!

Happy to help :-)

The usage of "including" without a preceding comma is typically ambiguous, and therefore usually grammatically incorrect (as in the case here). Since "including" (when it is acting as a modifier) is a non-restrictive modifier, it should always be preceded by a comma. You can read more about that here: That vs. Which on the GMAT

In option A, without context it would be ambiguous as to what exactly "including" is modifying. Since "of actors" is really modifying "generations", we could interpret this as "generations" with two modifiers ("of actors", "including..."), or we could interpret the "including..." as modifying "actors" only. Grammatical rules don't strictly tell us which one it is. However, you're definitely right that from the context here, "Marlon Brando" and "Robert De Niro" tell us that "including..." is modifying "actors", not "generations". If everything else about the sentence were correct, choice (A) could be considered correct (although maybe not as clear as we'd like). However, as I mentioned before, it is incorrect to see "including" here without a comma before it. So that, plus the issue with "who" following "American theater", leads us to eliminate (A).

I hope that helps! :-)
-Carolyn
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Re: As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Feb 2018, 23:02
MagooshExpert wrote:
Skywalker18 wrote:
Hi AjiteshArun ,GMATNinja , ChiranjeevSingh, mikemcgarry ,egmat , sayantanc2k, RonPurewal ,DmitryFarber , other experts - please enlighten

The National Fitness Test consists mostly of body-weight exercises, including sit-ups, push-ups, and chin-ups.
Comma+Including is used -
* It modifies the preceding noun
* It should give a list of some, but not all of that noun.

1.Is there a difference between the usage of comma+ including and including(without a preceding comma)? -- normally for Verb-ing modifiers the presence of comma leads to modification of the preceding action whereas, without the comma, the verb-ing modifies the preceding noun.

2. How do we decide whether verb-ing ( including ) modifies actors or the phrase several generations of actors ? I think it will depend on the context (what follows including )
In option A including follows Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro(examples of actors) . So doesn't it make sense?


(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including ---
Who illogically refers to American theater, but can't who refer to the phrase "one of the most influential artists in the American theater" since who can only modify people and American theater isn't a person.

In the official example stated in below link, we use context(Susan Huntington Dickinson can't be written) and grammar (SV disagreement and which can't refer to people) to allow which to refer to Noun + Prep phrase

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

https://gmatclub.com/forum/emily-dickin ... 10142.html


Hi Skywalker18!

Happy to help :-)

The usage of "including" without a preceding comma is typically ambiguous, and therefore usually grammatically incorrect (as in the case here). Since "including" (when it is acting as a modifier) is a non-restrictive modifier, it should always be preceded by a comma. You can read more about that here: That vs. Which on the GMAT

In option A, without context it would be ambiguous as to what exactly "including" is modifying. Since "of actors" is really modifying "generations", we could interpret this as "generations" with two modifiers ("of actors", "including..."), or we could interpret the "including..." as modifying "actors" only. Grammatical rules don't strictly tell us which one it is. However, you're definitely right that from the context here, "Marlon Brando" and "Robert De Niro" tell us that "including..." is modifying "actors", not "generations". If everything else about the sentence were correct, choice (A) could be considered correct (although maybe not as clear as we'd like). However, as I mentioned before, it is incorrect to see "including" here without a comma before it. So that, plus the issue with "who" following "American theater", leads us to eliminate (A).

I hope that helps! :-)
-Carolyn


Hi MagooshExpert Carolyn ,
Thanks for your help :-)

Who illogically refers to American theater, but can't who refer to the phrase "one of the most influential artists in the American theater" since who can only modify people and American theater isn't a person ?

(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including ---


In the official example stated in below link, we use context(Susan Huntington Dickinson can't be written) and grammar (SV disagreement and which can't refer to people) to allow which to refer to Noun + Prep phrase

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

https://gmatclub.com/forum/emily-dickin ... 10142.html
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New post 27 Feb 2018, 00:59
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Skywalker18 No, we can't do that, for the simple reason that "who" modifiers aren't used that way. For instance, we can't say "Jennifer is one of my best friends, who always helps me." Sure, it's perfectly clear what "who" is modifying. But we use it to add information about a noun or noun phrase, not to follow a statement. I could say "One of my best friends, who . . . ," but I wouldn't follow a complete clause about Jennifer with a "who" modifier.

Back to the original context, even if we didn't have a complete clause, we probably wouldn't say "One of the most influential artists in the American theater, who . . ." simply because there's too much material between the modifier and the actual noun. We can skip over a little bit, but only as needed, and usually when there's not really a better way to say it. In the Dickinson example, the prepositional modifier "to SHD" can't really fit anywhere but between "letters" and "which."
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New post 27 Feb 2018, 17:47
Skywalker18 wrote:
Hi MagooshExpert Carolyn ,
Thanks for your help :-)

Who illogically refers to American theater, but can't who refer to the phrase "one of the most influential artists in the American theater" since who can only modify people and American theater isn't a person ?

(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including ---


In the official example stated in below link, we use context(Susan Huntington Dickinson can't be written) and grammar (SV disagreement and which can't refer to people) to allow which to refer to Noun + Prep phrase

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

https://gmatclub.com/forum/emily-dickin ... 10142.html


Hi Skywalker18,

This is a bit less clear, because the "who" here could be referring to "influential artists in the American theater". This would be a more logical interpretation, from the structure of the sentence, than assuming that "who" is referring to "Stella Adler". It's definitely theoretically possible that those "influential artists" are the ones who "trained several generations of artists". And "trained" is a correct verb tense for either "Stella" or "artists". So here, the "who" is in fact ambiguous, even considering the context. You are correct that we can make certain inferences from the context, but when there are multiple logical references for a pronoun, there is still ambiguity.

I hope that helps! :-)
-Carolyn
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Re: As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella &nbs [#permalink] 27 Feb 2018, 17:47

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