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INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded

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INSEAD vs. LBS re-loaded

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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 14 Aug 2015, 04:58
Grad,
Just want to point out one misconception you made on INSEAD GMAT scores. While it is true that on its website it states, that if you have taken the test more than once and you meet the 70-75% criteria in both sections albeit different tests, they may take that as satisfactory given that the lower section does not drop too much. This however does not mean that the avg GMAT score they report is by taking the higher section of each test, this is certainly not true. For the GMAT reporting they take the highest score you achieved and avg GMAT score is 702 whereas 700 at LBS so it's basically the same.
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New post 17 Aug 2015, 04:28
tamtam wrote:
Grad,
Just want to point out one misconception you made on INSEAD GMAT scores. While it is true that on its website it states, that if you have taken the test more than once and you meet the 70-75% criteria in both sections albeit different tests, they may take that as satisfactory given that the lower section does not drop too much. This however does not mean that the avg GMAT score they report is by taking the higher section of each test, this is certainly not true. For the GMAT reporting they take the highest score you achieved and avg GMAT score is 702 whereas 700 at LBS so it's basically the same.

The information was about how they consider GMAT score for each individual. I already gave the link on the previous page, here is the quote
INSEADadmissions wrote:
mattapraveen wrote:
Hi Camille,
I am planning to apply to the INSEAD 2013 Jan MBA programme. My question is with regards to the GMAT score. Unfortunately I have a mixed GMAT scores as follows: 660-Q49/V-31 & 690-Q46/V-38. I have heard from many sources that INSEAD takes the best of all the individual section GMAT scores. So it it right in assuming that INSEAD would consider my GMAT score as Q49/V38? Or, it that INSEAD takes into account only the latest score?
Please advice.
Praveen

Hi Praveen,
If a candidate has taken the GMAT twice and on the first test obtained a satisfactory percentile on one part of the test (eg above 70th percentile on quant) but a low percentile on the other part of the test (eg below 70th percentile on verbal) and vice versa on the second test (eg low quant score and high verbal score), we may consider that they have reached a sufficient level overall provided the second test does not show too significant a drop in the lower element. It is however preferable to see the higher scores on the same test.
So yes, we'll consider your score as Q49/V38.

Camille

Each individual's GMAT score is determined by matching best parts from different exams. I doubt that they will do recomputation for reporting purposes. If you have any official documents about their GMAT reporting methodology you are welcome to post it here.

To be frank, lately, I became suspicious even about INSEAD official reports. They use tricks and people fall victim to their tricks. I did two times. One trick was using couple of years old exchange rate. Another is the salary reporting. All top-tier b-schools report salary and bonuses separately. So, when I (or any applicant for that matter) looked at the INSEAD report I naturally thought that the first number is the base salary. And on previous page, I was comparing the INSEAD overall salary with the base salary of LBS. Not many people are very attentive when reading different reports.
At Poet & Quants there is an article about INSEAD employment report.
http://poetsandquants.com/2015/07/13/in ... bs-report/
That is where I learned about my mistake. Quote from there

Quote:
Researcher
Hi,

Good results.

However, John, €89,400 is not a base salary, it is an overall salary. There are usually 3 components: 1) base salary 2) variable component/ year end bonus 3) sign-on bonus
For example HBS employment report 2014 states : 1) Base Salary 2) Median Signing Bonus 3) Median Other Guaranteed Compensation The same 3 components in Stanford's report.
Unless report explicitly says BASE salary, you cannot assume it is base. Some schools just say salary and may include in it some or even all bonuses. For example, IESE and INSEAD have the same overall salary (for 2014), but IESE also indicates a base salary, which is substantially less.

P.S. to give an INSEAD a credit: INSEAD explicitly indicates – 'overall'.
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Aug 2015, 11:31
Hey Congrats, It was a good confusion and I am sure a good decision. I am just starting out.
Do you mind giving a little background about yurself.

Like GMAT Score, experience years, AWA score etc.
thanks!

N
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INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Aug 2015, 14:21
2
Okay let’s put some facts straight:

Acceptance rate: INSEAD is considered to accept around 25% (20-30) of applicants (link: http://www.veritasprep.com/business-school/insead/) . This is slightly higher than LBS’s acceptance rate of around 17-26% (e.g. link: http://www.economist.com/whichmba/londo ... 2014?tab=6 & http://poetsandquants.com/2015/01/03/th ... schools/2/ ). But now consider the fact that at INSEAD there are above 4.500 to 6.000 applicants and at LBS there are 1.600-2.400 applicants. Why is that important? INSEAD is taking more than 1.000 students, LBS around 400. What really counts is how many apply to a school – if LBS would take in more than 1.000 students (as INSEAD does) LBS would have an acceptance of above 50% towards 75%. Only the ultimate elite schools have an applicant pool of above 4.500/5.000 – see the list of US schools in 2014 below of poets&quants (link: http://poetsandquants.com/2015/03/26/ge ... y-tough/3/) and only the very best schools especially have a yield (rate of applicants who accept the offer) of above 70%. INSEAD is considered to have a yield of 75% (below Harvard and Stanford, above Wharton and Columbia) (link: http://www.veritasprep.com/business-school/insead/ and http://poetsandquants.com/2015/03/26/ge ... y-tough/3/). This also confirms the analysis by Poets&Quants that INSEAD ranks 4th worldwide (after HSW) in where the best candidates accept the offer and decline others (link: http://poetsandquants.com/2015/06/15/ra ... -students/)

Please see the comparison below: In blue you can find the data from Poets&Quants and in red you find a normative calculation (easily traceable). You can see that INSEAD is just below the top3 schools worldwide and its yield is just below H/S. If every school had the same intake size of 500, the acceptance rate of the top 5 schools (HSW, INSEAD, Columbia) would be similar below 10%.

Image

Tepper, for instance, would have to accept almost 75% of applicants, if it had an intake of 1.000 MBA students. INSEAD can afford such an intake maintaining at same time a very high caliber student body.

Salaries:
First of all, salaries in the latest employment report of INSEAD are stated in 2014 exchange rates (see page 48 of the report – link: http://mba.insead.edu/documents/MBA_EMP ... ISTICS.pdf)  not 2012. So everything is fine.
Second, overall annual salary is the BASE SALARY  please have a look into INSEAD’s employment report of 2010 on page 14 where it is explicitly mentioned and the referred salaries are very similar to the ones in the 2014 report (link: http://mba.insead.edu/newsletter_archiv ... ISTICS.pdf)

The latest (2014) INSEAD overall annual median (BASE) salary is 89.400 € + overall median sign-on bonus of 19.400 € + year-end bonus, which is not stated because every employee receives it at the end of the year and it depends on merit. Therefore, the year-end bonus varies due merit and should not be stated in the actual employment report.
Now let’s compare INSEAD’s salaries to LBS’s salaries, which are both considered to be amongst the highest MBA salaries wordwide, converted into the same currency (€) at the same point in time (both converted in Q3/2014) – numbers taken from the latest employment reports (INSEAD: link: http://mba.insead.edu/newsletter_archiv ... ISTICS.pdf, LBS: link: http://www.london.edu/-/media/files/pro ... _final.pdf)

Image

These base salaries are both only comparable to (but beating) HSW (Stanford: 129.620 $, Harvard: 127.24 $, Wharton: 123.43 $ - see above****)

* as of 1st of August (stated in LBS employment report) link: http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/GBP-EUR ... story.html
** also exchange rate August average 2014 (stated in INSEAD employment report) - link: http://www.x-rates.com/average/?from=EU ... &year=2014
*** This is the starting base salary - there is no start bonus and year-end bonus included.
**** Bear in mind that these are averages per school - see this link: http://poetsandquants.com/2015/07/06/th ... t-value/2/


Base salary down the road for 2014 – 3 years after graduation – source: FT:
Here, INSEAD and LBS salaries (3 years down the road) are almost exactly equal (155.546 $ & 155.754 $) after M7 probably due to the salary acceleration in the US compared to e.g. in Europe, where most INSEAD and LBS graduates work, and maybe due to the currency appreciation of the $ in the last year. See link: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolra ... nking-2015


Job Placement:

INSEAD’s latest employment report again demonstrates that it is THE consulting school placing more MBAs into MBB than any other school (actually more than the next couple of schools combined – see also other links and posts in this forum).

Image
* see page 30 of the INSEAD’s latest employment report (link: http://mba.insead.edu/documents/MBA_EMP ... ISTICS.pdf) – in brackets the employees who went back to their previous employer. In total, around 25% of the class went solely into MBB.

Compared for instance to LBS 2014 (also considered as very high for MBB):
Image
* see page 4 of the latest employment report (link: http://www.london.edu/-/media/files/pro ... _final.pdf) . In total, 64 of 400 went into MBB --> 16% --> This high compared to all other top-ranked MBAs, but nowhere near INSEAD.

CEOs in Fortune 500:
INSEAD has 9 (not 6) CEOs in Fortune 500 companies – globally only behind Harvard. 3rd is Stanford with 8, then Booth, Wharton, and Kellog with 6, Columbia 4, Darden & NYU 3, LBS 1. See link: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/61621620 ... z3jokqoS96

CEOs in Europe:
INSEAD absolutely dominates the list, with 12 of the CEOs from Europe's biggest listed companies having trained there, almost twice as many as the next-closest competitor (HBS: 7, IESE: 5, Wharton: 4, Booth: 3, LBS: 0. See link: http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-11-bu ... ?op=1?r=US

GMAT scores:
As stated previously, INSEAD does NOT take your best quant score and your best verbal score from different GMAT exams and calculates an own GMAT overall score. Period. There is no difference in the average GMAT score calculation than at any other school. Avg. GMAT for INSEAD is 701. LBS: 695 (see the latest employment reports) – these are slightly lower than the top 5-10 US schools. However, INSEAD is still able to maintain such a high level of incoming students, although it is accepting 1.000 students and requires students to know 3 languages. I am convinced that if LBS had an intake of 1.000 students, the GMAT score would be much lower than its current one. Compared to the top 5-10 US schools I also speculate that INSEAD’s quant score would be similar; the verbal score could be better in the US (due to the fact that English is US’ citizens’ native language)

Alumni Network:
INSEAD has one (if not THE) strongest alumni network in the world with 50.000 MBAs, Executive MBAs, PhD, Masters. Everywhere you can read that it is such a tightly knit community.

In summary, there is no doubt in my mind that you made absolutely the right choice going to INSEAD. It is always widely stated and I truly believe that you can’t go wrong in any case with one of the M7 + INSEAD + LBS schools. Recruiters know that the best candidates choose those schools and will recruit there. Generally, they will not increase one applicant’s salary because he/she is from one or the other school within this pool of 9 schools.

Personally, I moved to the US and will probably stay here. I’ll focus more on US schools. My dream schools will be Harvard, Stanford or INSEAD. Shoot high – life is too short to step back.
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Aug 2015, 08:19
thx man - well put - I totally agree with your analysis!

The best people really apply to the best schools - INSEAD picks the best out of the best.

Let me put it differently: I wanna go there :-)


& BTW Congrats to your decision!
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Aug 2015, 12:28
Kain, you did a lot of work, but your numbers are very wrong. Lets look
Kain wrote:
Okay let’s put some facts straight:
Acceptance rate: INSEAD is considered to accept around 25% (20-30) of applicants (link: http://www.veritasprep.com/business-school/insead/) . This is slightly higher than LBS’s acceptance rate of around 17-26% (e.g. link: http://www.economist.com/whichmba/londo ... 2014?tab=6 & http://poetsandquants.com/2015/01/03/th ... schools/2/ ). But now consider the fact that at INSEAD there are above 4.500 to 6.000 applicants and at LBS there are 1.600-2.400 applicants. Why is that important? INSEAD is taking more than 1.000 students, LBS around 400. What really counts is how many apply to a school – if LBS would take in more than 1.000 students (as INSEAD does) LBS would have an acceptance of above 50% towards 75%. Only the ultimate elite schools have an applicant pool of above 4.500/5.000 – see the list of US schools in 2014 below of poets&quants (link: http://poetsandquants.com/2015/03/26/ge ... y-tough/3/) and only the very best schools especially have a yield (rate of applicants who accept the offer) of above 70%. INSEAD is considered to have a yield of 75%

These are incorrect ranges and I already gave the links and commented about acceptance rates on previous page. Do not want to repeat myself.
Short comment regarding the yields: even the link selected by you (to P&Q) states: INSEAD yield 75%, LBS yield 78% )))

In later years, I have seen lots of statistics that the number of applicants at LBS exceeds 3000. And only old statistics for INSEAD.
I am not a fan of playing with extreme numbers like you, but let me do the same:
Acceptance rate at LBS [b]12%. At INSEAD 33%. At P&Q some guys say that current acceptance rate at INSEAD is close to 50%
Number of applicants in best years at INSEAD were 4000 and now presumably 3000-3500 or less.
At LBS 400/78% = 521, 512/12% = 4265 ))

Quote:
Please see the comparison below: In blue you can find the data from Poets&Quants and in red you find a normative calculation (easily traceable). You can see that INSEAD is just below the top3 schools worldwide and its yield is just below H/S. If every school had the same intake size of 500, the acceptance rate of the top 5 schools (HSW, INSEAD, Columbia) would be similar below 10%.

Image

I analyzed what you did to the numbers to arrive at the acceptance rates and I don't know even what to say. I am speechless. You are either joking or you are not from INSEAD.
I do not want to offend you, but if you are not joking and you are from INSEAD, then there are two very sad reputational concerns for INSEAD:
a) INSEAD guy does not understand very simple stuff and meaning of acceptance rate or
b) INSEAD guy so explicitly and in a very simplistic way is trying to fool people, - which also harms the reputation.


Quote:
Salaries:
First of all, salaries in the latest employment report of INSEAD are stated in 2014 exchange rates (see page 48 of the report – link: http://mba.insead.edu/documents/MBA_EMP ... ISTICS.pdf)  not 2012. So everything is fine.

Hmmmm that is interesting! They deleted 2012. You can go to P&Q and ask. A lot of people saw it and questioned their reporting practice. Apparently, they made some changes.
Quote:
year-end bonus, which is not stated because every employee receives it at the end of the year and it depends on merit. Therefore, the year-end bonus varies due merit and should not be stated in the actual employment report.

Many annual bonuses are guaranteed and are known well before year end. Separately reporting all three components is a normal practice for top-tier b-schools.

Quote:
Second, overall annual salary is the BASE SALARY  please have a look into INSEAD’s employment report of 2010 on page 14 where it is explicitly mentioned and the referred salaries are very similar to the ones in the 2014 report (link: http://mba.insead.edu/newsletter_archiv ... ISTICS.pdf)

No, it is not base. Firstly, it is not the same report and you cannot assume that nothing has changed in 5 years. Secondly, here is the another trick. In the text they gave range for base salary. But they reported overall mean salary. The marketing guys at INSEAD are not complete fools to compute the mean data for the base salary and then report it as an OVERALL mean salary.
I can easily prove that. In 2014 report for internships along with term 'overall' they used base salary even in the heading but no mention of base salary for full-time employment. Guess why? Because overall salaries and base salaries were the same for internships with no guaranteed annual compensation.

Very simple example with summer internships:
Average days per month in the summer = 30,67
Average weeks per month = 4,38
LBS
Mean = GBP 1024 per week = GBP 4485 per month
Median = GBP 1000 per week = GBP 4380 per month
INSEAD
Mean = Euro 4300 per month
Median = Euro 4500 per month
YTD exchange rates varied from 1,25 to 1,44 – take any. The difference is huge. Why is that? Because there is no annual bonuses to put inside for INSEAD. You can do the same calculation for 2013. The difference for 2013 is even larger.
Quote:
Now let’s compare INSEAD’s salaries to LBS’s salaries, which are both considered to be amongst the highest MBA salaries wordwide, converted into the same currency (€) at the same point in time (both converted in Q3/2014) – numbers taken from the latest employment reports (INSEAD: link: http://mba.insead.edu/newsletter_archiv ... ISTICS.pdf, LBS: link: http://www.london.edu/-/media/files/pro ... _final.pdf)
Image

That is comparison of INSEAD total salary to LBS base salary at the lowest YTD GBP/Euro exchange rate. And even in this unfair case salaries is basically the same. If you take LBS total salary and compare it to INSEAD total salary at the highest YTD exchange rate(or even lowest exchange rate) - there will be a huge gap between the two.

Quote:
Base salary down the road for 2014 – 3 years after graduation – source: FT:
Here, INSEAD and LBS salaries (3 years down the road) are almost exactly equal (155.546 $ & 155.754 $) after M7 probably due to the salary acceleration in the US compared to e.g. in Europe, where most INSEAD and LBS graduates work, and maybe due to the currency appreciation of the $ in the last year. See link: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolra ... nking-2015

This is not hard dollars. This is in PPP. FT at PPP reports salary of 169,420 for Indian Institute of Management (Ahmedabad). But if you look at IIM employment report: average base salary is slightly more than USD 20 000 and total compensation is circa USD 25 000. Nuff Said.


With respect to MBB placement – there is no doubt INSEAD places its graduates very well into MBB. But it overweighs consulting. Top-tier b-schools have more balanced top-consulting/ top-finance mix.

The rest of the points have already been well discussed on this and previous pages.
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 03 Mar 2017, 17:23
This debate has been very helpful for my decision. Although it has confused me about the LBS v INSEAD decision more than ever.

Part of me feels that this discussion group can help me better if it understands my individual circumstances.

I am 25 years old. 26 by the time I start.
I'm weak in quant
Very strong in verbal (I have a background in law but I have been a marketer for the past 2 years)
I am an AU/NZ citizen and would like to work in China, Singapore or Australia, just as much as I'd like to work in London or US.
If consulting is a no goer for me because of my relatively weak quant then I'd like to get to an exec position at one of the large luxury conglomerates such as LVMH, Kering or Richemont. I think they do some of the best brand work and brand management.
I am quite a creative person, but I have much more structured and disciplined thought than pure creatives, yet I find it taxing to start at spreadsheets all day.

Knowing all of this. Which school?

I really appreciate your help on this, and soon. Thanks

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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Mar 2017, 09:36
If you wish to go into consulting INSEAD is a clear winner. If you already have MC experience, INSEAD makes even more sense. To me this is a no-brainer.
I would recommend LBS only if you're looking for a career in finance...
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Mar 2017, 13:30
All the quantitative stuff aside there's something to be said about a 2 year MBA vs a 1 year MBA. Similarly, living in London vs Fontainebleau are two entirely different things imo
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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Mar 2017, 14:44
Thanks for the responses.

I guess I should clarify my question a bit. I'm trying to understand not just which school will be a good fit for me, but also which school is more likely to set me up for success given my weaker quant skills and my background in marketing.

Thank you

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Re: INSEAD vs LBS re-loaded &nbs [#permalink] 06 Mar 2017, 14:44

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