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Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
DmitryFarber wrote:
jabhatta2

It isn't really useful to look at the word "when" in isolation here. All of the choices with "when" also use "it." In the past few posts, both Ron and I have gotten into why "it" doesn't make sense here. Using a "when" modifier just tacks on to the same mistaken reading. In this context, we are talking about two different amounts of energy, not the exact same energy used in two different kinds of device.Since it wouldn't work to say "underestimate that when used by unobtrusive equipment," there's no way to say that "when" is usable in this sentence.


Hi DmitryFarber - i agree the "it" is wrong. Per the yellow highlight above - if i understand you correctly, the "When" in itself is not technically wrong.

So if I was to make a very simple sentence

Quote:
People overestimate the amount of energy used by Russia and underestimate the amount of energy when used by USA


  • Then when in my analogy is NOT a 100 % parallel but it's not the end of the world obviously.
  • Is the "When" in my analogy / original sentence - not meaningull ? I personally dont think the "when" is a deal-breaker.
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Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
RonTargetTestPrep KarishmaB DmitryFarber - question on the usage of "When" in option (B), (c), and (E) ?

can we eliminate these choices because of faulty ussage of "When" ?

I personally think "When" is justified.

Reason :
Quote:

This is the sentence if you remove the modifiers :

People under-estimate the amount of energy when used by unobtrusive equipment


This implies people under-estimate the amount of energy (when energy is used by unobtrusive equipment)

So when energy is NOT USED by unobtrusive equipment, people DONT under-estimate

Isnt that accurate ? I thought per the meaning of the sentence -- When unobtrusive equipment is NOT using energy so when the equipment is IDLE -- people dont Under-estimate

I dont see what is wrong with "When"



Even if we ignore the 'it' error, 'when used by ...' is a reduced adverbial phrase here. It is incorrect here.

Example:

When my food processor is used by my son, it makes funny noises.
Underlined is adverbial clause.

When used by my son, my food processor makes funny noises.
Reduced to adverbial phrase because subject is the same - 'food processor.' We can do this only incase subject is the same.

People tend to underestimate the amount of energy used when used by unobtrusive equipment.
or
When used by unobtrusive equipment, people tend to underestimate the amount of energy used.
Here the implied subject is 'people,' not energy.

When people are used by unobtrusive equipment, people tend... (makes no sense)

Hence, use of 'when' is not correct.
Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
C. equipment, such as lights, that is visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate it when

"...equipment... that IS visible" is right, but we have the same "when" problem as in (B). Now that I think about it, I'm also not crazy about the "it" -- the pronoun is a long way from its antecedent, "the amount of energy." The pronoun "that" is much clearer in (A) or (D), because of the parallel structure.

If you wanted to be conservative and hang onto (C) at first, that's great -- I would do the same. But as we'll see in a moment, there's a much better option.


Quote:
D. visible equipment, such as lights, that must be turned on and off and underestimate that

Ooh, this looks great. No subject-verb issue, plus it's pleasantly succinct: "visible equipment... that must be turned on and off" is way better than "equipment that is visible and must be turned on and off." And as discussed above, "that" is a nice, clear pronoun. Keep (D)..

GMATNinja
Thanks, thanks a lot. it helps to understand whole the things but i have a little query with the above explanation. if it, in choice C, is 'long way from its antecedent' then that in choice D is also 'long way from its antecedent'?
Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
GMATNinja
Sir, May I have your attention, please?
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Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
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TheUltimateWinner wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
C. equipment, such as lights, that is visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate it when

"...equipment... that IS visible" is right, but we have the same "when" problem as in (B). Now that I think about it, I'm also not crazy about the "it" -- the pronoun is a long way from its antecedent, "the amount of energy." The pronoun "that" is much clearer in (A) or (D), because of the parallel structure.

If you wanted to be conservative and hang onto (C) at first, that's great -- I would do the same. But as we'll see in a moment, there's a much better option.


Quote:
D. visible equipment, such as lights, that must be turned on and off and underestimate that

Ooh, this looks great. No subject-verb issue, plus it's pleasantly succinct: "visible equipment... that must be turned on and off" is way better than "equipment that is visible and must be turned on and off." And as discussed above, "that" is a nice, clear pronoun. Keep (D)..

GMATNinja
Thanks, thanks a lot. it helps to understand whole the things but i have a little query with the above explanation. if it, in choice C, is 'long way from its antecedent' then that in choice D is also 'long way from its antecedent'?


Here are my quick two cents. Rest, Charles will explain in detail.

'that' is used in comparisons to refer to something that has been given before.
The tail of a monkey is much longer than that of a dog.
'that' refers to 'tail'
We do not use 'it' in place of 'that' because it would refer to 'the tail of a monkey.'

'that' in option (D) creates a parallel structure:
People tend to overestimate the amount of energy used by visible equipment, ... and underestimate that used by unobtrusive equipment ...

'that' refers to 'amount of energy'.

Option (C):
People tend to overestimate the amount of energy used by equipment that is visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate it when used by
unobtrusive equipment ...

'it' refers to 'the amount of energy used by equipment that is visible' which doesn't really work. If I do assume that it refers to only 'the amount of energy' then another noun 'equipment that is visible' is closer so it is a problem.
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Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the amount of energy used by equipment, such as lights, that are visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate that used by unobtrusive equipment, such as water heaters.
A. equipment, such as lights, that are visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate that
B. equipment, such as lights, that are visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate it when
C. equipment, such as lights, that is visible and must be turned on and off and underestimate it when
D. visible equipment, such as lights, that must be turned on and off and underestimate that
E. visible equipment, such as lights, that must be turned on and off and underestimated it when

My two cents:
"Equipments, that are visible" - relative clause is not parallel to "unobtrusive equipment" - adjectival/noun phrase. So we are left with D and E. When as pointed by other experts is used for a single point of time. Hence, Option D is the right answer. Experts please comment if my reasoning is wrong. Thank you :)
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Re: Lacking information about energy use, people tend to overestimate the [#permalink]
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