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555-605 Level|   Idioms/Diction/Redundancy|   Subject Verb Agreement|                                    
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 31 May 2020, 00:34
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varotkorn What you're describing can certainly happen, but in this case "how many languages are in the world" is not a thing that can be replaced by "it." We're not saying that "how many languages are in the world" is an object or concept that nobody knows. Rather, we're saying that people have been unable to count the number of languages, in part because what constitutes a language is not entirely clear. But yes, I could use it for a phrase or clause that clearly represents a noun: "What I ate for breakfast was hard to describe, but it was very filling."
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 31 May 2020, 01:02
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DmitryFarber
Rather, we're saying that people have been unable to count the number of languages, in part because what constitutes a language is not entirely clear.
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Dear DmitryFarber,

According to your previous explanation on this page
https://gmatclub.com/forum/nobody-knows ... 76-20.html
DmitryFarber
We definitely need to count languages (plural). zoezhuyan is right that we can't "count the number" of something.
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Why can't we count "the number of" something?
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 31 May 2020, 01:17
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A number is a way to describe what we count. I can't count "100." I can count some languages and determine that there are 100 of them. I'm counting the languages, not the number itself. Similarly, I can measure your foot to see what shoe size you are, but I can't measure your shoe size, which is an abstract concept.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 15 Jun 2020, 05:30
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In option A - Is the clause ??? but those who have tried to count ....??? Independent clause .
It says tried to count ,but to count ???what ???is not mentioned .
Please clarify .
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 15 Jun 2020, 09:00
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In option A - Is the clause ??? but those who have tried to count ....??? Independent clause .
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Well, the Independent clause is:

those typically have found about five thousand.

who have tried to count is a dependent clause (relative clause) modifying those.

You can watch our video on Independent & Dependent clauses.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses Independent & Dependent clauses, their application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 29 Oct 2020, 23:52
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly because of the difficulty of distinguishing between a language and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found about five thousand.


(A) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found

(B) and the sub-languages or dialects within them, with those who have tried counting typically finding

(C) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find

(D) or the sub-languages or dialects within them, but those who tried to count them typically found

(E) or the sub-languages or dialects within them, with those who have tried to count typically finding
Show more

This question is based on Pronoun Usage and Idiomatic Usage.

A vertical scan of the options shows us that Options A, B, and C begin with the conjunction ‘and’. Options D and E begin with the conjunction ‘or’.

If we detect the correlative conjunction ‘between’ placed before the underlined portion begins, the choice between the conjunctions ‘and’ and ‘or’ at the beginning of the options is very easy. The appropriate pair of correlative conjunctions is ‘between-and’.

Furthermore, the pronoun ‘them’ in Option D is ambiguous as the pronoun cannot refer to the ‘language’. The same pronoun error is repeated in Option E. So, Options D and E can be eliminated.

Option B also contains the ambiguous pronoun ‘them’. So, Option B can also be eliminated.

Between Options A and C, there is a lack of parallelism of tenses in Option C. The two verbs “have tried” and “find” should be parallel because they convey two actions closely related to each other. So, Option C can be eliminated.

The pronoun ‘it’ is appropriate because the antecedent of the pronoun is the singular noun ‘language’. The verbs ‘have tried’ and ‘have found’ are parallel to each other. Therefore, A is the most appropriate option.

Jayanthi Kumar.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 30 Oct 2020, 21:11
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Kalpit1212
In formal writing, we generally say "try to do X" rather than "try doing X." In casual speech, the latter is quite common.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 13 Nov 2020, 10:38
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[fraction]GMATNinja[/fraction]
Quote:

In C, why you were ok with first 'It' but not the second.

Posted from my mobile device
Take another look at (C): "and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find." "It" seems to refer to "a language." So let's substitute "language" for the pronoun in each case:

    1) the sub-languages or dialects within a language

This makes sense. A language can have sub-languages or dialects within it.

    2) those who have tried counting a language

It doesn't really make any sense to count a language, does it? It's far more logical to "count" something when we're referring to multiple entities.

I hope that helps!
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GMATNinja
When IT refers back to 'x', then it (IT) can also refers back to 'y', isn't it? So, if the first IT refers to 'language' then the 2nd IT can refers back to 'number of languages' too. So, what's wrong if the 2nd IT refers back to 'number of languages'?
Thanks__
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 19 Jan 2021, 22:06
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TheUltimateWinner
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Quote:

In C, why you were ok with first 'It' but not the second.

Posted from my mobile device
Take another look at (C): "and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find." "It" seems to refer to "a language." So let's substitute "language" for the pronoun in each case:

    1) the sub-languages or dialects within a language

This makes sense. A language can have sub-languages or dialects within it.

    2) those who have tried counting a language

It doesn't really make any sense to count a language, does it? It's far more logical to "count" something when we're referring to multiple entities.

I hope that helps!
GMATNinja
When IT refers back to 'x', then it (IT) can also refers back to 'y', isn't it? So, if the first IT refers to 'language' then the 2nd IT can refers back to 'number of languages' too. So, what's wrong if the 2nd IT refers back to 'number of languages'?
Thanks__
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Two issues here. First, while you're right that there's no rule that two identical pronouns can't refer to different antecedents, it's awfully confusing if they do. Anytime you have a choice between an option that's clear and obvious and one that requires multiple reads to figure out what the heck is going on, you'd always prefer the former.

Second, the phrase "a number of languages" never appears in the sentence -- a pronoun can't refer to something that isn't there!

The takeaway: don't overthink pronoun usage. If you see a pronoun, try to find a logical antecedent within the sentence. If you find one, move on to other issues. If there is no logical antecedent, get rid of the option. If you find a logical antecedent, but it's confusing or requires a fair amount of work to locate, don't eliminate the option quite yet, but be on the lookout for an alternative that clarifies the issue.

I hope that helps!
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 09 Feb 2021, 15:46
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Hi AndrewN sir

I would like to confirm whether in A' find could also be right?

Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly because of the difficulty of distinguishing between a language and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found about five thousand.


(A) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found
(A') and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically FIND

Kindly give your opinion.

Thanks!
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 09 Feb 2021, 16:06
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mSKR
Hi AndrewN sir

I would like to confirm whether in A' find could also be right?

Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly because of the difficulty of distinguishing between a language and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found about five thousand.


(A) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found
(A') and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically FIND

Kindly give your opinion.

Thanks!
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Hello, mSKR. It is not that your proposed sentence absolutely could not work, but the original is better left as is, in which have tried and have found are perfectly parallel and add to this aura of mystery as to the exact number of languages. We are encountering information on results. By contrast, find pigeonholes that same information and projects into the future. Apparently, every single person who makes an attempt, or even will make an attempt, to count the number of world languages typically lands on some number close to five thousand. That meaning seems more debatable and less satisfying than what was already in place. Be careful not to let conciseness guide your hand over meaning, particularly when parallelism is involved.

I hope that helps. Thank you for thinking to ask me.

- Andrew
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 05 Jun 2021, 11:54
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Hello Sir EducationAisle

Are these sentences (not really related to the question but to the form of tenses used in it) valid:

1. Those who tried have succeeded.
2. Those who have tried have succeeded.
3. Those who have been trying have succeeded.
4. Those who tried have been succeeding.

I know all these sentences are trying to convey different things, but grammatically, are all structures valid?

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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 06 Jun 2021, 08:39
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Vishalcv
Hello Sir EducationAisle

Are these sentences (not really related to the question but to the form of tenses used in it) valid:

1. Those who tried have succeeded.
2. Those who have tried have succeeded.
3. Those who have been trying have succeeded.
4. Those who tried have been succeeding.

I know all these sentences are trying to convey different things, but grammatically, are all structures valid?
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Hi Vishal, it's difficult to deliver a judgment on these pieces of sentences!

Generally speaking however, the use of present perfect is associated with unspecified time ("those who have tried" means those who have tried at some unspecified time before now) have succeeded. Since "unspecified time" is the context here, my pick would be #2.

Having said that, a case can indeed be made for each of the above sentences; actual GMAT sentences using the above sentence-forms, would result in a more meaningful discussion.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 04 Jul 2021, 12:09
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I am just curious about "tried to count / tried counting" in A/B
Are they both correct?

I know they have different meanings.
So in this context, is "tried to count" better than "tried counting"?
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 10 Jul 2021, 07:57
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huchanbert
GMATNinja


I am just curious about "tried to count / tried counting" in A/B
Are they both correct?

I know they have different meanings.
So in this context, is "tried to count" better than "tried counting"?
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As Dmitry Farber noted in an earlier post, when we try to do something, we are making an attempt that may or may not be successful. But when we try doing something, we're actually performing the action, perhaps to see if we enjoy it.

For instance, "Tim tried to make raw-cookie-dough pancakes," suggests that Tim made an attempt to make this type of pancake, but may have failed. (How do you cook the pancake without cooking the raw cookie dough?)

But "Tim tried making raw-cookie-dough pancakes," suggests that Tim was trying out a new activity to see if he enjoyed it, and in this case, he succeeded in making the pancakes. (The key is adding the dough at the last possible moment. Also, please don't do this, because salmonella is a thing. :) )

In this SC problem, it makes more sense to write "tried to count" because we're told that nobody knows exactly how many languages there are -- this means that an attempt was made, but that the attempt may not have been entirely successful. This is more logical than "tried counting," which suggests that someone successfully counted all the languages because he wanted to see if it would be fun.

That said, if you didn't feel comfortable differentiating between those subtle meaning differences, there are some nice, juicy pronoun/logic issues to use as decision points instead.

I hope that helps!
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 10 Aug 2021, 10:18
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Again a Good Q. and it's easy to get confused among the answer choices.
Sometimes I feel it is better to use the elimination tactic first rather than reading all the answer choices.
if we see a strong flaw, we need to immediately eliminate the wrong ones without reading them completely.

Note:: GMAT loves Between X and Y. I ve noticed its frequent usage ==> D,E are out
Since the question represents a contrasting situation hence "but" shall be preferred
==>B is out
now in A vs C
counting "it" is wrong per the intended meaning. since counting refers to the counting of all languages, sub languages and dialects ==> singular pronoun usage of "it" is wrong ==> C is out
==> A is the answer

Extra Note::
I got so confused between "within it" and "within them" that I lost focus on the simple idiom "between x and y" and other possible flaws and chose a wrong answer.

Many a time, we need to let it go and look for other possible flaws. Sticking on a particular flaw (provided we are not sure) can waste time and effort.
I have noticed that tough questions have multiple hints. All that is required is a sharp eye.
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 06 Jan 2022, 11:28
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Please help with option C. Right now option (C)= and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find

But if (C) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting ""them"" typically find... would this have been okay?
+is **counting** used in this option correct?
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 07 Jan 2022, 07:16
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Mansha1412
Please help with option C. Right now option (C)= and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find

But if (C) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting ""them"" typically find... would this have been okay?
+is **counting** used in this option correct?
Show more

Hello Mansha1412,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, even if the pronoun error in Option C were resolved, it would still suffer from multiple flaws.

Option C incorrectly uses the simple present tense verb “find” to refer to an action that concluded in the past but continues to affect the present; please remember, the present perfect tense (marked by the use of the helping verb “has/have”) is used to describe events that concluded in the past but continue to affect the present, and the simple present tense is used to indicate actions taking place in the current time frame, indicate habitual actions, state universal truths, and convey information that is permanent in nature. Further, Option C uses the present participle (“verb+ing” – “counting” in this sentence) to refer to the intent behind the action “tried”; please remember, the infinitive verb form (“to + base form of verb”) is preferred over the present participle (“verb+ing” – “counting” in this sentence) for referring to the purpose/intent of an action.

To understand the concept of "Simple Tenses" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~1 minute):



To understand the concept of "Present Perfect Tense" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



To understand the concept of using "Infinitive Verb Forms" and "Present Participles" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



All the best!
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 31 Jan 2022, 03:03
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nightwing79
Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly because of the difficulty of distinguishing between a language and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found about five thousand.


(A) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried to count typically have found

(B) and the sub-languages or dialects within them, with those who have tried counting typically finding

(C) and the sub-languages or dialects within it, but those who have tried counting it typically find

(D) or the sub-languages or dialects within them, but those who tried to count them typically found

(E) or the sub-languages or dialects within them, with those who have tried to count typically finding


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Attachment:
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Attachment:
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Idiom : between __ and , (A,B,C)
B: "them" eliminate as language is singular
C : eliminate ,usage of IT is ambiguous ( can refer to dialects or language )

A remains .
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Nobody knows exactly how many languages there are in the world, partly 31 Jan 2022, 03:43
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Anuj6221
C : eliminate ,usage of IT is ambiguous ( can refer to dialects or language )
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A very minor (but important) observation Anuj: "it" can only refer to "singular non-person" nouns and hence, "it" cannot refer to the plural noun "dialects".
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