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Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st

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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 21 Sep 2017, 12:01
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LakerFan24 wrote:
if an expert can please solidify my thinking here, that would be great:

- at first upon re-reviewing this question, i thought "where" was an error b/c there is no physical location immediately following/preceding the position "where" is in, in the sentence.

-- however, upon reading it again, i'm considering that "where" can tie back in to Minnesota. in fact, for the correct answer, both "where"s tie back to "Minnesota". correct?
> Broader take-away being the GMAT does not necessarily have to insert a location immediately before/after "where" in a sentence...there could be some words/phrases separating the two components

As a longtime Warriors fan, I cannot, in good conscience, answer any of your queries, LakerFan24. ;)

Just kidding. The Lakers are going to be really, really fun to watch this year. And next year, once they get LeBron. And the entire NBA will be better when the Lakers are good again.

Anyway, I think that there are a couple of ways to think about this:

  • All five answer choices are basically structured the same way, with the modifier (starting with either "that" or "where") following the phrase "Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states." So it's clearly a moot point in the eyes of the GMAT: all five answer choices are structured the same way, so you don't really have to worry about the modifier placement. (If you're concerned about "that" vs. "where", check out my post above: https://gmatclub.com/forum/minnesota-is ... l#p1838805)
  • In this particular example, I think we could debate whether the modifier "where there is still a sizable population" refers to "Minnesota" or "one of the only states" (which, of course, is the same thing as saying "Minnesota"). Either way, it makes perfect sense.
  • More broadly, it can be perfectly OK to stick some sort of modifier between "where" and the location/place it modifies. Example: "In 2012, I moved to Colorado, the most beautiful and drunken state in the country, where beer flows from mountain streams." Sure, "where" is a little ways from "Colorado", but it's still perfectly clear.

I hope this helps!
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 21 Oct 2017, 04:02
PTK wrote:
dkverma wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why E is correct.



Look here:

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable; - gramatically is correct but needs conjunction to show the logical relationship between two independent clauses, rather tah semicolon that implies their equality
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

Remember: when two clauses are introduced than both of them must be parallel either “that….that” OR “where….where” (it is wrong to use “that….where”)


Hi Experts,

I was really bumped after seeing the OA of this question. :( In the correct answer option E, wolves are mentioned, whereas in the non-underlined portion the reference to "this predator" confused me and I directly rejected this option. This predator is singular and "wolves" is plural. Though that part is clear after reading the GMATNinja's explanation. :)

But I have one quick question. "that" and "where" both are relative pronouns so why they cannot be parallel? ALso, can someone elaborate why options A and C are incorrect??
Someone has mentioned : Parallelisms error: we can not place that clause parallel to where clause. Is that correct? I maybe asking a silly question but I am confused and really need to clear my confusion.

When "that" and "where" both can be used to refer to a location as GMATNinja also pointed above, then why they cannot be parallel??

daagh mikemcgarry

Thanks.
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 05 Nov 2017, 06:17
aceGMAT21 wrote:
PTK wrote:
dkverma wrote:
Can someone explain in detail why E is correct.



Look here:

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable; - gramatically is correct but needs conjunction to show the logical relationship between two independent clauses, rather tah semicolon that implies their equality
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

Remember: when two clauses are introduced than both of them must be parallel either “that….that” OR “where….where” (it is wrong to use “that….where”)


Hi Experts,

I was really bumped after seeing the OA of this question. :( In the correct answer option E, wolves are mentioned, whereas in the non-underlined portion the reference to "this predator" confused me and I directly rejected this option. This predator is singular and "wolves" is plural. Though that part is clear after reading the GMATNinja's explanation. :)

But I have one quick question. "that" and "where" both are relative pronouns so why they cannot be parallel? ALso, can someone elaborate why options A and C are incorrect??
Someone has mentioned : Parallelisms error: we can not place that clause parallel to where clause. Is that correct? I maybe asking a silly question but I am confused and really need to clear my confusion.

When "that" and "where" both can be used to refer to a location as GMATNinja also pointed above, then why they cannot be parallel??

daagh mikemcgarry

Thanks.
-Varun


Not an expert, but let me share my thought process.

One of the most common incorrect constructions used by GMAT is the following:

One of X (where X is a plural noun) that singular verb [Kindly note that this is an incorrect construct]
The above construct is incorrect because the relative pronoun 'that' directly refers to the plural noun (which is X in this case) hence begs a plural verb.
Based on this one logic you can strike out options A,B and C in one go because all 3 options use the singular verb 'Has' to refer to plural noun states.

Hope this helps !!!
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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gkslko101 wrote:
The Official Guide for GMAT Review 10th Edition, 2003

Practice Question
Question No.: SC 225
Page: 688

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable;
(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Which one is better sizable wolf population or sizable population of wolves.
Please explain the answer?


That cannot be used to modify a place for 1st three options are out. Also, states.. have.. (not has)

semi-colon in D is wrong as they suggest independent meanings..

E
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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gkslko101 wrote:
Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.


(A) that still has a sizable wolf population, and where
Here, "sizable" and "wolf" both are adjectives modifying population. Therefore, the construction in its present form is INCORRECT as it appears "sizable" is modifying "wolf" instead of "population", as it is present just before wolf. That is INCORRECT. So, the correct or preferred construction over here would be -- "sizable population of wolves" and not "sizable wolf population".

Also, there is a parallelism issue w.r.t choice E, that is, that....... and where........ The presence of COMMA BEFORE "AND" is incorrect.


(B) that still has a sizable wolf population, where
Similar error as with option A. Also, "where" is modifying "population" due to the change in its position, its modifying the closest noun, which is incorrect. "where" is specifically used to refer to PHYSICAL PLACES/ LOCATIONS. Incorrect.

(C) that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where
parallelism issue -- that..... and where......, option E is better than this choice w.r.t this regard. Just reiterating -- the easiest criterion on which to eliminate choice (c) is the fact that its parallelism is inferior to the parallelism exhibited in choice (e).
Also, the comma before "AND" does not seem logical. INCORRECT.

there should not be a comma in the construction "X and Y" unless "X" and "Y" are independent clauses -- i.e., each is a complete sentence on its own, with "and" serving as a coordinating conjunction.

(D) where the population of wolves is still sizable;
(d) is out because it contains a significant change in meaning. the semicolon in (d) separates its meaning into two unrelated sentences; i.e., the part of (d) that follows the semicolon suggests that the wolf is still the archenemy of the sheep in general. this is almost exactly the opposite of the intended meaning, which is that minnesota is the only state where that's still true!

(E) where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where
CORRECT.

TAKEAWAY FROM THE QUESTION :
if two or more sentences are grammatically correct, then you must pick the one whose meaning adheres most closely to the original meaning.
although the original is grammatically incorrect, its intended meaning is clear:
* minnesota is the only state where there is a sizable wolf population;
AND
* minnesota is the only state where the wolf is still the worst enemy of the sheep.

ALSO ONE MORE THING THAT I NEED TO CLEAR OUT FOR THIS QUESTION WHICH MOST OF THE PEOPLE HAD POSTED IN THE PREVIOUS COMMENTS AS INCORRECT IS ACTUALLY CORRECT :

The constructions in A, B, and C --
The only one of X that/who + singular verb is ACTUALLY CORRECT. We cannot eliminate options A, B and C directly on that basis, because the CONSTRUCTION is correct. I think most of the people are confusing with the FOLLOWING CONSTRUCTION which is INCORRECT as that is NOT tested in the question above and that is,

Only one of X that/who + plural verb -- This is NOT the construction in the question at hand. Notice "THE" missing in the beginning of this construction. Though a subtle difference but worth noting.
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 27 Nov 2017, 04:59
abhimahna wrote:
Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.

A. that still has a sizable wolf population, and where That is referring to States and it must have ‘have’ instead of ‘has’

B. that still has a sizable wolf population, where same as A

C. that still has a sizable population of wolves, and where same as A

D. where the population of wolves is still sizable; It is changing he meaning. As per the original sentence we must convey the meaning that those states have two things. But this sentence conveys only one things and makes the other thing as a part of Independent clause. Hence, incorrect.

E. where there is still a sizable population of wolves and where


Hi Abhimahna,
We can use semicolon to join 2 independent clause and finfd the relationship between them by the use of because (implied)
Example- My grandmother seldom goes to bed this early; she's afraid she'll miss out on something.

Now, in choice D-
Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states ) where the population of wolves is still sizable; this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Cant we say- where the population of wolves is still sizable because this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep. This gives a cause and effect relationship. But again, in the original sentence, we dont have a causal relationship and the intended meaning implies Minnesota is the place where there is X and where there is Y. So, just because of the reliability on the original structure, are we eliminating D
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 10 Mar 2018, 11:56
Can someone please explain it more precisely?
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 10 Mar 2018, 16:39
Shivikaa wrote:
Can someone please explain it more precisely?


You have 4 pages of discussion, do you really think this question was not explained enough? :shocked Really?
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 04 Apr 2018, 14:18
abhimahna

I understand that choice E maintains meaning, but choice D seems to convey a different, better meaning.

Choice E has two things in parallel: Minnesota is a place 1) where there is a sizable population and 2) where the predator is still the arch enemy of cattle and sheep. Grammatically, this is perfect, but it doesn't make sense logically. What does the number of wolves have to do with their predatory habits? Are we to assume that a smaller population of wolves, let's say in South Dakota, don't eat cattle and sheep? I find it hard to imagine that Minnesota is the only place where cattle and sheep are at odds with wolves...

Thus, D seems to make more sense. Minnesota is the only place where there is a large population of wolves, BUT we should use the ";" to denote that all wolves - regardless of what state they live in - are still at odds with cattle and sheep.
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Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 06 Apr 2018, 03:51
mbit wrote:
abhimahna

I understand that choice E maintains meaning, but choice D seems to convey a different, better meaning.

Choice E has two things in parallel: Minnesota is a place 1) where there is a sizable population and 2) where the predator is still the arch enemy of cattle and sheep. Grammatically, this is perfect, but it doesn't make sense logically. What does the number of wolves have to do with their predatory habits? Are we to assume that a smaller population of wolves, let's say in South Dakota, don't eat cattle and sheep? I find it hard to imagine that Minnesota is the only place where cattle and sheep are at odds with wolves...

Thus, D seems to make more sense. Minnesota is the only place where there is a large population of wolves, BUT we should use the ";" to denote that all wolves - regardless of what state they live in - are still at odds with cattle and sheep.


Hey mbit ,

I am happy to help :)

I agree that D is grammatically correct but please note that D by using a semicolon separates the clause "this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep." from where it is happening.

As per the meaning of the sentence we are saying both the things are happening in Minnesota. So, I used "where this predator... " but if I don't use a conjunction and instead use a semi color, I am breaking the relationship of this clause we have with Minnesota. Hence, D should be straight out option.

Does that make sense?
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 14 Apr 2018, 04:57
Dear experts,

There is disagreement among experts in whether the original sentence has S-V agreement error or not. Although this doesn't prevent us from identifying the right AC, I would request your help is understanding the point.

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Is has correct here? What is it with "The only one of the Xs that/who" construction that requires singular verb?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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NikMan wrote:
Dear experts,

There is disagreement among experts in whether the original sentence has S-V agreement error or not. Although this doesn't prevent us from identifying the right AC, I would request your help is understanding the point.

Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that still has a sizable wolf population, and where this predator remains the archenemy of cattle and sheep.
Is has correct here? What is it with "The only one of the Xs that/who" construction that requires singular verb?

Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Hitesh


Hey NikMan ,

There is a very good explanation given by our expert here.

I would prefer to stick to what has been explained by him.

Yes, Since we are saying "only" one of the states -- We need to use "has" otherwise how could it be only?

Yes, for your 2nd query also, it has to be "has".

Does that make sense?
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 15 May 2018, 02:24
daagh wrote:
Choice D woefully misses the conjunction that bridges Minnesota with the un-underlined part of the sentence, resulting in a debate as to what purpose the second part serves after separated from the main part, by a semicolon.

In B, doesn’t the pronoun where, by virtue of its placement, modify population, which is wrong?

Though wordy, by using where for both the parts of the sentence and also by employing the more customary population of wolves rather than the odd wolf population, E seems to stand out IMO



But what does 'this' refers to in option E. We have 'a sizeable population of wolves' in option E which refers to population not wolves. Even if I assume it is referring to 'wolves' not 'population', 'wolves' is still plural and 'this' is singular.
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Re: Minnesota is the only one of the contiguous forty-eight states that st [#permalink]

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New post 15 May 2018, 06:57
manishk30 wrote:
But what does 'this' refers to in option E.

Hi Manish, this predator in E clearly conveys that this is referring to predator.
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