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555-605 Level|   Comparisons|   Grammatical/Rhetorical Construction|                              
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 06 Dec 2019, 06:08
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(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants,...

Initially I thought this sentence is wrong because there was a comparison error, but after having read the whole thread, I'm confused right now...

In my opinion, we have dropped out some words from the original sentence to make it more concise, and the expanded sentence should be 'While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as to run other types of power plants,...', and since the 'cost' here is a verb, we are not comparing the 'costs' with 'plants', but the 'to run nuclear plants' with 'to run other types of power plants', which seems more logical to me. So there is no comparison error here. And it seems to me that we can drop out the 'to run' between 'as' and 'other types of power plants' so that the sentence is shorter. According to one of the Payal's posts in the thread, since there is no preposition between 'to run' and 'other types of power plants' in the original sentence, I suppose there is no need to add a preposition like 'for' here, which means that we can drop out the 'to run' directly, and therefore 'While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, ...' is correct.

I know it may sound ridiculous but I think my reasoning above seems correct... As for the ambiguity, I'm not sure if could mean that we compare 'to run nuclear plants' with 'other types of power plans'. It seems so strange to me that I would never think of it in this way.

Can experts explain it to me, please?
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 17 Jul 2020, 23:15
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(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
Hm, there’s some weird pronoun stuff going on here. The first “it” is a non-referential pronoun: in the phrase “it costs”, “it” doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s sort of like saying “it is raining” or “it is a bad idea to lick frozen doorknobs.” (I may or may not speak from experience on that last one.)

Non-referential pronouns can be fine, but you don’t see them very often in correct GMAT answers, so they make me nervous.

And of course, there are three of those non-referential pronouns in the sentence! Both “…it is the fixed costs…” and “makes it more expensive” have non-referential versions of “it.” I can’t call them DEFINITE errors, but I don’t love them, and I can’t imagine that a correct GMAT sentence would have THREE non-referential pronouns. Non-referential pronouns just aren’t that awesome, and there’s no good reason to overuse them.

I also see no reason to use “them” toward the end of the sentence: why say “makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity” when you could just shorten it to “makes it more expensive to generate electricity”? Wasted words aren’t cool.

And if you’re not convinced by any of that stuff, there’s a wonderfully serious mistake in (A). “…the fixed costs… makes it more expensive…” That’s a clear subject-verb error.

I’m tired of (A) now. Let’s eliminate it.

Quote:
(B) While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
I don’t see any major issues in (B). The pronoun “they” jumps out at me, and it seems to refer to the nearest plural, “nuclear plants.” And that works just fine: “the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity [nuclear plants] generate more expensive.” No problem.

The only other potential objection I see is the comparison at the beginning of the sentence, but… hang on, it’ll be easier to explain WHY that comparison is OK if we put it side-by-side with another answer choice.

So for now, let’s keep (B), and I’ll say more about the comparison at the end of this post.

Quote:
(C) Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
(C) has a few of the same problems we saw in (A). The subject-verb problem is the biggest issue: “the fixed costs… that makes” is definitely wrong.

We also have a couple of non-referential pronouns in the phrases “it costs about the same” and “it is the fixed costs…” These aren’t WRONG, exactly, but there’s no compelling reason to include them in the sentence unless they somehow clarify the meaning. For more detail, please see the explanation for (A).

But even if you’re OK with the funny non-referential pronouns, the subject-verb thing lets us eliminate (C).

Quote:
(D) It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive, stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants.
(D) is just plain old confusing. For starters, the pronoun “they” logically needs to refer to “nuclear power plants”, since we know from the context (“stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants”) that the nuclear plants generate more expensive electricity. But “they” is actually closer to “other types of power plants.” That’s confusing – and probably a good enough reason to eliminate (D).

Plus, I still don’t see any good reason to use a non-referential pronoun (“it costs…”) at the beginning of the sentence. See the explanation for (A) for more detail on this.

So (D) is out.

I promised that I’d come back to the comparison in (B), so here it is again, right next to (E):

Quote:
(B) While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
(E) The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.
The comparison error at the beginning of (E) is pretty darned subtle: “the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants…” Wait, no. We’re trying to compare the COSTS of running the two types of plants, but (E) literally compares the costs of running nuclear plants to the other plants themselves. That doesn’t work.

The version in (B) (“the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants”) might not be perfect, but it’s definitely better: the use of the preposition makes it clear that we’re comparing the costs of running nuclear plants with the corresponding costs “for other types of plants.” Fair enough.

You could also argue that the second half of the sentence is clearer in (B) than in (E). (B) is in active voice and more direct: “the fixed costs… make the electricity… more expensive.” (E), on the other hand is passive: “the electricity… is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.” (E) isn’t necessarily WRONG in this section, but it’s definitely not as clear and direct as (B).

So (B) is our answer.
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Sir, can we consider the comparison issue in A same as in E. I.e costs v/s other plants.
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 19 Aug 2020, 14:59
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budhni

Sir, can we consider the comparison issue in A same as in E. I.e costs v/s other plants.
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Yeah, in addition to the issues with (A) described here, the comparison is a bit off.

Maybe we could get away with saying, "While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as it does (or "costs") to run other types of power plants." But, as written, (A) seems to compare "other types of power plants" to the first "it" (which doesn't really refer to anything).

The comparison is much clearer in option (B)!
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 22 Aug 2020, 08:17
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Hi Payal

On a related note,
In "the fixed costs that" what is the that referring to, as per EGMAT concept files, that is singular and as per my understanding fixed costs are plural so there should have been a which or some other pronoun in all the choices.

Can you please clarify the gap in my understanding, I am getting extremely confused in most of the OG questions.

egmat
imhimanshu

I tried to understand this concept by taking clues from MGMAT, but failed to do so. I would appreciate if someone can help me out.

Here is an example from MGMAT-
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.
Here, that is referring to incidence, per explanantion from MGMAT.

So, ellipsis should be -
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that(of the disease) among women.
Now, going by same concept -

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as that for electric plants.
In the below sentence, what THAT is referring to . Is it "the cost" or "the cost of running".

If it is later, then why do we require an extra preposition?

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as {the cost of running }for electric plants.

Appreciate your help
Thanks
H

Very interesting question Himanshu.
When you are dealing with ellipsis, it always helps to begin from the completely expanded version with all the words and then move your way to the abbreviated version by applying ellipsis along the way. I will do the same here:

Let's consider only the pertinent portion of the sentence.

1. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of running other types of power plants.
No issues here with the comparison. Both sides of the comparison are grammatically and logically parallel.

Now what if I replace "the cost of running" with "that". After it is obvious that we are comparing cost of running of the two categories of plants. But when I apply this ellipsis, I need something to connect "that" with "other types of power plants".

2. (Without connection with that)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that other types of power plants. WRONG

2. (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

Now we continue with our ellipsis. We can indeed even omit "that" from here since this omission will not lead to any ambiguity.

3. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants.

So this is how I get to the correct sentence containing "for".

Now let's apply the same on the set of sentences:
1. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
1 to 2 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
2. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
2 to 3 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
3. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.




So the key thing here is that as you replace or omit words, think about what connections you may need to get the correct sentence. The nature of the two sentences is different. In the Official sentence, the main component - cost of running - took direct object without the need of any preposition. So when we replaced this with "that" we needed a connection - i.e. a preposition. However, in the other example, the main component - incidence of the disease - itself needed a preposition to connect to the object and hence when we replaced it with "that" we did not need to get another preposition.

Thus when you cross-check your work in ellipsis, start from the complete sentence and then work your way to simplified version with replacement words and omitted words.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 03 Nov 2020, 07:14
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Gylmitul
that is singular and as per my understanding fixed costs are plural so there should have been a which or some other pronoun in all the choices.
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Hi Gylmitul, there seems to be a major conceptual gap here. that is used as a relative pronoun here; all relative pronouns (such as which, that, who, whom, and whose) can modify both singular and plural nouns. So, that can definitely refer to the plural noun-phrase fixed costs here.

I am wondering whether you are confusing this with the usage of that as a demonstrative pronoun; when used as a demonstrative pronoun, that can only refer to singular entities. However, this case will not be applicable to the sentence under consideration, since here, that is used as a relative pronoun.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses these differences when “that” is used as a "demonstrative pronoun" vis-a-vis when "that" is used as a "relative pronoun". Have attached the corresponding section of the book, for your reference.
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of Updated on: 22 Dec 2020, 00:52
Originally posted by TargetMBA007 on 11 Dec 2020, 00:25.
Last edited by TargetMBA007 on 22 Dec 2020, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.
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WoW This one completely trumped me, the comparison on this was really tricky!

I am struggling to understand why the Comparison is parallel is A but wrong in E (As per the official Explanation and Manhattan Navigator explanation too). I understand why A and E are wrong due to the other reasons but really struggling with the comparison on this one.

A states "While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as (it costs to run) other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity."

E states "The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as (the cost of running) other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants."

I have marked the implied ellpises in both the cases, and to me both sentences make sense, but somehow apparently the comparison is correct in A but incorrect in E.

Would be great if one of the Grammar geniuses could help out here:
EducationAisle, GMATNinja AndrewN, egmat, MartyTargetTestPrep, CrackVerbalGMAT GMATNinja
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 11 Dec 2020, 05:27
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Hello, TargetMBA007. I see how you could be confused. Remember, though, that you cannot force an interpretation of a sentence onto it. The first option, which I will discuss in-line below, needs the ellipsis to operate, and the contents of that ellipsis can only work one way. The second option, meanwhile, allows for two valid interpretations. I often focus more on the meaning conveyed than I do strict parallelism, and this one is no exception. How about we get our hands dirty, then?

TargetMBA007
WoW This one completely trumped me, the comparison on this was really tricky!

I am struggling to understand why the Comparison is parallel is A but wrong in E (As per the official Explanation and Manhattan Navigator explanation too). I understand why A and E are wrong due to the other reasons but really struggling with the comparison on this one.

A states "While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as (it costs to run) other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity."
Show more
Clip off to run from the comparison, and the sentence must imply the same. Try it out:

A.2) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as it costs other types of power plants...

Although it is used as a placeholder here, that non-referential nature steers us into a single interpretation of the comparison, with or without to run, because, crucially, costs is a verb. (Something has to cost a certain amount.)

TargetMBA007
E states "The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as (the cost of running) other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants."
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Now, since cost has morphed into a noun, we can correctly compare one cost to another, but running is not necessarily implied.

E.2) The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of other types of power plants...

The above variation is suggesting that the operational cost of one type of power plant is so expensive that it would be just as costly to purchase other types of power plants, and, nonsensical though that interpretation may be, the grammar cannot be used to spirit away the nonsense. That is the parallelism problem with (E), but again, I like to focus more on meaning.

TargetMBA007
I have marked the implied ellpises in both the cases, and to me both sentences make sense, but someone apparently the comparison is correct in A but incorrect in E.

Would be great if one of the Grammar geniuses could help out here:
EducationAisle, GMATNinja AndrewN, egmat, MartyTargetTestPrep, CrackVerbalGMAT GMATNinja
Show more
Thank you for the compliments, and yes, I do pluralize the word deliberately. I consider myself more of a grammar journeyman, picking up bits and pieces of information as I go. But to be named alongside these other Experts—including GMATNinja twice over—now that is a compliment.

I hope that helps with your query. If not, I am not afraid to jump back into the pigpen that is GMAT™ SC.

- Andrew
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 22 Dec 2020, 01:36
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Hello, TargetMBA007. I see how you could be confused. Remember, though, that you cannot force an interpretation of a sentence onto it. The first option, which I will discuss in-line below, needs the ellipsis to operate, and the contents of that ellipsis can only work one way. The second option, meanwhile, allows for two valid interpretations. I often focus more on the meaning conveyed than I do strict parallelism, and this one is no exception. How about we get our hands dirty, then?

TargetMBA007
WoW This one completely trumped me, the comparison on this was really tricky!

I am struggling to understand why the Comparison is parallel is A but wrong in E (As per the official Explanation and Manhattan Navigator explanation too). I understand why A and E are wrong due to the other reasons but really struggling with the comparison on this one.

A states "While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as (it costs to run) other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity."
Clip off to run from the comparison, and the sentence must imply the same. Try it out:

A.2) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as it costs other types of power plants...

Although it is used as a placeholder here, that non-referential nature steers us into a single interpretation of the comparison, with or without to run, because, crucially, costs is a verb. (Something has to cost a certain amount.)

TargetMBA007
E states "The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as (the cost of running) other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants."
Now, since cost has morphed into a noun, we can correctly compare one cost to another, but running is not necessarily implied.

E.2) The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of other types of power plants...

The above variation is suggesting that the operational cost of one type of power plant is so expensive that it would be just as costly to purchase other types of power plants, and, nonsensical though that interpretation may be, the grammar cannot be used to spirit away the nonsense. That is the parallelism problem with (E), but again, I like to focus more on meaning.

TargetMBA007
I have marked the implied ellpises in both the cases, and to me both sentences make sense, but someone apparently the comparison is correct in A but incorrect in E.

Would be great if one of the Grammar geniuses could help out here:
EducationAisle, GMATNinja AndrewN, egmat, MartyTargetTestPrep, CrackVerbalGMAT GMATNinja
Thank you for the compliments, and yes, I do pluralize the word deliberately. I consider myself more of a grammar journeyman, picking up bits and pieces of information as I go. But to be named alongside these other Experts—including GMATNinja twice over—now that is a compliment.

I hope that helps with your query. If not, I am not afraid to jump back into the pigpen that is GMAT™ SC.

- Andrew
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Thanks AndrewN for the very detailed response as always. I certainly owe a part of my future GMAT Score to you :)

When you say "of running" is not necessarily implied, how do we know whether it is implied or not?

Also, just to see if I understand your point correctly, to summarize can we say that as we get two different meanings with and without the use of the preposition "of running" in E, therefore E is wrong, whereas in A, whether or not we use the preposition "to run" we get the same meaning, making it unambiguous and hence the comparison in A is correct?
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 22 Dec 2020, 10:35
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TargetMBA007
Thanks AndrewN for the very detailed response as always. I certainly owe a part of my future GMAT Score to you :)

When you say "of running" is not necessarily implied, how do we know whether it is implied or not?

Also, just to see if I understand your point correctly, to summarize can we say that as we get two different meanings with and without the use of the preposition "of running" in E, therefore E is wrong, whereas in A, whether or not we use the preposition "to run" we get the same meaning, making it unambiguous and hence the comparison in A is correct?
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Hello, TargetMBA007. Thank you again for the kind words. You ask a fair question. The grammar of the sentence ought to make clear just how much may be carried over from one part of a comparison to another. For reasons explained earlier, we cannot say that of running is necessarily implied. Certainly, it could be understood. If I were talking to somebody casually, I might say the same thing. However, grammatically speaking, the meaning is not quite clear, and another person looking on the same sentence might see nothing more than an improper comparison. That is the problem with (E). Your thoughts at the end of the post are spot on. Meaning dictates correctness, and (A) leaves no room for doubt as to what is being compared.

- Andrew
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 15 Feb 2021, 17:13
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(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
(C) Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.

it is fixed costs (that stem from building nuclear plants) (that makes the electricity they generate)
That makes the electricity they generate is modifier FOR BUILDING NUCLEAR PLANTS, is not it?
If that were not present then it would have modified fixed costs.

Please clarify on this as experts have pointed S-V disagreement. I am not clear on this .
AndrewN EMPOWERgmatVerbal AjiteshArun
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 15 Feb 2021, 20:00
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mSKR
(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
(C) Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.

it is fixed costs (that stem from building nuclear plants) (that makes the electricity they generate)
That makes the electricity they generate is modifier FOR BUILDING NUCLEAR PLANTS, is not it?
If that were not present then it would have modified fixed costs.

Please clarify on this as experts have pointed S-V disagreement. I am not clear on this .
AndrewN EMPOWERgmatVerbal AjiteshArun
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Hi mSKR,

Let's start by taking a look at that it, but in a different (shorter) sentence:

1. The corruption scandal torpedoed his career. ← This is fine.

2. It was the corruption scandal that torpedoed his career. ← This is the same sentence, but the way it is constructed draws extra attention to the corruption scandal. This could be used (for example) to emphasize that it was the corruption scandal (and nothing else) that "torpedoed his career".

We can read (2) like this:

3. The corruption scandal was the thing that torpedoed his career. ← Notice how we're still talking about the corruption scandal. The scandal was what "torpedoed his career".

Now, back to what we see in this question:

4. It is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes {something} more expensive. ← This sentence uses the dummy it that we see in (2). The makes is a problem, because the fixed costs is what the that-clause (that makes...) refers to.

To see why the that in that makes refers to the fixed costs, let's try to remove the it at the beginning of the sentence (like going from (2) to (1)):

5. The fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make {something} more expensive. ← We must switch from the singular makes to the plural make, as the subject (the fixed costs...) is plural.

So, it is not building nuclear plants that makes something more expensive. It is the fixed costs that make {the electricity the nuclear plants generate} more expensive.

As for your second question, we cannot remove the second that:

6. It is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants makes {something} more expensive. ← The verb makes is left hanging here. It is not connected to anything in the sentence.
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 16 Feb 2021, 00:33
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It is absolutely right to use 2 modifiers to the same noun without using AND as I can learn from this question?
Do I not need to use AND?


It is the fixed costs ..
...that stem from building nuclear plants
...that makes the electricity xx

It is fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants and that makes the electricity xx
or
It is fixed costs , stem from building nuclear plants , that makes the electricity xx


Is this concept similar to the concept explained here:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722237 GMATGuruNY
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722235 AndrewN

Please suggest AjiteshArun AndrewN @GMATGuruNY
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 16 Feb 2021, 01:04
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mSKR
It is absolutely right to use 2 modifiers to the same noun without using AND as I can learn from this question?
Do I not need to use AND?


It is the fixed costs ..
...that stem from building nuclear plants
...that makes the electricity xx

It is fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants and that makes the electricity xx
or
It is fixed costs , stem from building nuclear plants , that makes the electricity xx


Is this concept similar to the concept explained here:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722237 GMATGuruNY
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722235 AndrewN

Please suggest AjiteshArun AndrewN @GMATGuruNY
Show more
Hi mSKR,

That's a great question! The two situations are not the same. A simple way to think about this particular situation is that the two relatives (the that-clauses) that we see here aren't really the same.

1. X is Y. ← Absolutely straightforward!

2. It is X that is Y. ← "Repackaged" version of (1). This that-clause is just a way to (for example) add emphasis.

Now the problem we face in this question is that there is a that-clause inside the X as well.

3. It is the fixed costs that stem from {something} that make {something} more expensive.

The point to note here is that the two that-clauses are not exactly the same. That is, we cannot say this:

4. It is the fixed costs that stem from {something} and that make {something} more expensive.

The whole the fixed costs that stem from {something} is one unit. In other words, the sentence is:

5. It is [the fixed costs that stem from {something}] that make {something} more expensive. ← "It is [X] that is Y."

To see this, let's try to remove that dummy it:

6. The fixed costs that stem from {something} make {something} more expensive.

Do you see how the that stem... bit stays as it is and continues to describe the fixed costs but the other that-clause is no longer there in the sentence? That's because that particular that-clause was never really meant to describe the fixed costs at all, not in the same way as the first that-clause. It was a way to "repackage" that sentence.

At the end of the day, what we're saying is that the "repackaged" version of "X is Y" could be "it is X that is Y" but not "it is X and that is Y". We can't add an and there just because the X has a that-clause in it.
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 16 Feb 2021, 06:04
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This is one of the questions which is not in normal form. So it is better to deal with new structure ( if we are not aware) to make it in simple form and check if this sentence makes sense. If the sentence makes sense then consider logic more important and check for other errors as in A.

So our approach to reject A and acceot B should be:


(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.

Hints to reject A and give priority B:
for them extra words: B doesn't have these words - is there any better choice?
It: pronoun insertion : B doesn't have extra pronoun. - is there any better choice?
consider structure: if makes modifies building nuclear plants then 2nd part of sentence left is : it is the fixed costs that xx that yy - must be wrong or else unknown structure also has similar structure
Finally, what makes expensive to generate electricity? Building nuclear plants can make expensive , how? if cost associated in building is considered, so makes should refer to fixed costs logic wise.


How would be your approach if you come across a not-normal structure first time?
Consider logic first?

Please share your thoughts. AjiteshArun AndrewN

Thanks!
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 16 Feb 2021, 07:46
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mSKR
It is absolutely right to use 2 modifiers to the same noun without using AND as I can learn from this question?
Do I not need to use AND?


It is the fixed costs ..
...that stem from building nuclear plants
...that makes the electricity xx

It is fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants and that makes the electricity xx
or
It is fixed costs , stem from building nuclear plants , that makes the electricity xx


Is this concept similar to the concept explained here:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722237 GMATGuruNY
https://gmatclub.com/forum/sartre-an-in ... l#p2722235 AndrewN

Please suggest AjiteshArun AndrewN @GMATGuruNY
Show more
Hello, imSKR. I agree with AjiteshArun in those two thorough posts to your queries above. I would like to point out that these that clauses in question are both referring back to fixed costs, but not in the same capacity. The first goes into the origin of the costs and relies on a prepositional phrase, never resolving the main clause in any meaningful way, while the second completes the original thought with a verb in the embedded clause, to make, that introduces the object of the clause, the electricity. It is a subtle issue, but the comma or and marking the two clauses as parallel entities should not be present. We could stack that clauses one after another, without commas or using and, as long as the information we were getting was subordinate to some series of nouns. Consider a rambling (non-GMAT™) sentence in which we encountered three such clauses before we popped back into the main clause:

It is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear power plants that are supposedly friendly to an environment that is burdened with pollution that comes mostly from human activity that make the electricity that such plants generate more expensive.

Again, such a tangential sentence would not appear as an answer choice on the GMAT™, certainly not as a correct answer. The point, though, is that that clauses can be added without and or the use of commas in certain circumstances. In the original sentence, the first that clause would not create a meaningful, non-dialogue-based sentence on its own, while the second would, so the two entities are not the same. To illustrate:

1) It is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear power plants. (Unfinished thought. Fixed costs stem from building nuclear plants? Do fixed costs not stem from building other types of power plants or anything else? Why is the emphasis on fixed costs in particular? What are these costs doing, or what effect do they have?)

2) It is the fixed costs that make the electricity [more expensive]. (Complete thought with an effect.)

If we were to add a second effect in that form, within such a clause, we would indeed use a comma or and:

3) It is the fixed costs that make the electricity more expensive, that eventually cause people to complain when they see their energy bills.

Notice that either that clause would complete the thought of the sentence on its own. I have already illustrated this notion with sentence 2 above, but consider the second half on its own:

4) It is the fixed costs that eventually cause people to complain when they see their energy bills.

The issue is one of meaning more than one of grammar. You can study the example of this question and its variant sentences, but I doubt you will find the same issue crop up too often, if at all, in other questions.

I hope that helps. Thank you for thinking to ask me.

- Andrew
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 17 Feb 2021, 07:51
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Quote:
(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
Hm, there’s some weird pronoun stuff going on here. The first “it” is a non-referential pronoun: in the phrase “it costs”, “it” doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s sort of like saying “it is raining” or “it is a bad idea to lick frozen doorknobs.” (I may or may not speak from experience on that last one.)

Non-referential pronouns can be fine, but you don’t see them very often in correct GMAT answers, so they make me nervous.

And of course, there are three of those non-referential pronouns in the sentence! Both “…it is the fixed costs…” and “makes it more expensive” have non-referential versions of “it.” I can’t call them DEFINITE errors, but I don’t love them, and I can’t imagine that a correct GMAT sentence would have THREE non-referential pronouns. Non-referential pronouns just aren’t that awesome, and there’s no good reason to overuse them.

I also see no reason to use “them” toward the end of the sentence: why say “makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity” when you could just shorten it to “makes it more expensive to generate electricity”? Wasted words aren’t cool.

And if you’re not convinced by any of that stuff, there’s a wonderfully serious mistake in (A). “…the fixed costs… makes it more expensive…” That’s a clear subject-verb error.

I’m tired of (A) now. Let’s eliminate it.


Quote:
(C) Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
(C) has a few of the same problems we saw in (A). The subject-verb problem is the biggest issue: “the fixed costs… that makes” is definitely wrong.

We also have a couple of non-referential pronouns in the phrases “it costs about the same” and “it is the fixed costs…” These aren’t WRONG, exactly, but there’s no compelling reason to include them in the sentence unless they somehow clarify the meaning. For more detail, please see the explanation for (A).

But even if you’re OK with the funny non-referential pronouns, the subject-verb thing lets us eliminate (C).
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GMATNinja
Thank you sir for the broad explanation. Everything makes sense to me other than the highlighted part!
From the sentence it seems that the subject for the verb makes is building nuclear plants NOT 'the fixed costs' both in choice A and C.
Quote:
(B) While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
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Only in this choice, the subject for the verb make is the the fixed costs
Sir, am I missing anything? Could you clarify, please?
Thanks__
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 25 Feb 2021, 08:47
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TheUltimateWinner
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Quote:
(A) While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
Hm, there’s some weird pronoun stuff going on here. The first “it” is a non-referential pronoun: in the phrase “it costs”, “it” doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s sort of like saying “it is raining” or “it is a bad idea to lick frozen doorknobs.” (I may or may not speak from experience on that last one.)

Non-referential pronouns can be fine, but you don’t see them very often in correct GMAT answers, so they make me nervous.

And of course, there are three of those non-referential pronouns in the sentence! Both “…it is the fixed costs…” and “makes it more expensive” have non-referential versions of “it.” I can’t call them DEFINITE errors, but I don’t love them, and I can’t imagine that a correct GMAT sentence would have THREE non-referential pronouns. Non-referential pronouns just aren’t that awesome, and there’s no good reason to overuse them.

I also see no reason to use “them” toward the end of the sentence: why say “makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity” when you could just shorten it to “makes it more expensive to generate electricity”? Wasted words aren’t cool.

And if you’re not convinced by any of that stuff, there’s a wonderfully serious mistake in (A). “…the fixed costs… makes it more expensive…” That’s a clear subject-verb error.

I’m tired of (A) now. Let’s eliminate it.


Quote:
(C) Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
(C) has a few of the same problems we saw in (A). The subject-verb problem is the biggest issue: “the fixed costs… that makes” is definitely wrong.

We also have a couple of non-referential pronouns in the phrases “it costs about the same” and “it is the fixed costs…” These aren’t WRONG, exactly, but there’s no compelling reason to include them in the sentence unless they somehow clarify the meaning. For more detail, please see the explanation for (A).

But even if you’re OK with the funny non-referential pronouns, the subject-verb thing lets us eliminate (C).
GMATNinja
Thank you sir for the broad explanation. Everything makes sense to me other than the highlighted part!
From the sentence it seems that the subject for the verb makes is building nuclear plants NOT 'the fixed costs' both in choice A and C.
Quote:
(B) While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
Only in this choice, the subject for the verb make is the the fixed costs
Sir, am I missing anything? Could you clarify, please?
Thanks__
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The subject-verb issues in (A) and (C) are discussed in detail here and here. Let us know if those don't clear up your question.

Also, please be aware that we receive literally hundreds of questions every month on the forums -- far more than we could dream of answering in detail -- and you'll receive better responses from forum experts if you pick your battles carefully. I'd recommend asking for a specific expert's help only when you're sure that your question hasn't been answered elsewhere on the thread -- and I'd also recommend keeping your overall volume of expert reply requests in mind. ;)

I hope that helps a bit!
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 08 Mar 2021, 04:56
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In E, why do we need a preposition? Cant we omit words as long as the sentence stays unambiguous? Or is there some other rule? I read E like this: The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as (the cost of running) other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.

Would appriciate some help:)

Thank you!
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 08 Mar 2021, 20:56
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HansJK
In E, why do we need a preposition? Cant we omit words as long as the sentence stays unambiguous? Or is there some other rule? I read E like this: The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as (the cost of running) other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.

Would appriciate some help:)

Thank you!
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Hi HansJK,

But there is ambiguity in "the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants".

The cost of X is the same as Y. ← "The cost of X is the same as {the cost of} Y."

X in this case is running nuclear plants, whereas Y is other types of power plants.
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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of 18 Mar 2021, 12:36
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GMATNinja

(D)It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive, stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants.

We have reasons to eliminate D, but isn't 'they' in whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive unambiguously refers to 'nuclear plants' and not to 'nuclear plants' OR 'other types of power plants'.
You said 'they' can refer to any.

I am just confused. May be I am missing something.
Please can you clarify.

Thanks
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As discussed in this video, if a sentence contains two clauses (either one dependent and one independent, or two independent clauses) and the second clause starts with a pronoun, then the pronoun can -- CAN, not MUST -- refer unambiguously to the subject of the first clause. Examples can be found here and here.

But that's not what we have in (D). In (D), the subject-verb pair in the first clause is "it costs," and the subject-verb pair in the "whereas" clause is "the electricity... is". The pronoun "they" is actually part of an implied noun modifier that describes the electricity: "... the electricity [that] they generate is..."

Because (D) does not follow the pattern described above, we get the ambiguity issue described in this post.

I hope that helps!
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