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605-655 Level|   Idioms/Diction/Redundancy|   Modifiers|   Pronouns|   Subject Verb Agreement|                                    
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 12 Apr 2022, 09:07
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dcoolguy
hello experts, @martytargetprep mgmat GMATNinja egmat

I almost marked B, but the took some more time and marked A,

I might be overthinking but inspired can be a verb for views, views influenced... and inspired... -leaving no verb for Bill. hence i eliminated it!

**second, How can ,ing modify musicians? it's modifying Bill and the action of bill- inspired. I've seen it many times ,ing modifies nearest noun, it makes sense if verb is missing but how can it modify noun when verb is there in previous clause!

please don't reply EducationAisle as you always render half explanation!
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Hello, dcoolguy. I wanted to take a moment to point out that, first and foremost, GMAT Club is a community. It does not exist to serve you. In fact, some Experts may feel put off by seeing such "list" requests that mention a string of tutors or test prep companies. Such a request can suggest that you do not particularly care which Expert replies, as long as you get your question answered. However, the particular request you made at the end of your post is, at best, disrespectful to Ashish (maybe there are others at Education Aisle, but the only posts that come to my mind are all by Ashish); at worst, it is an affront to the entire GMAT Club community. Remember, this is a public forum, not your private, on-demand access to the best minds in exam prep. If you would like your queries answered by a select few, try writing PMs, not making an open request in the thread.

I acknowledge that you are part of the GMAT Club community, and that everyone has the right to participate in a manner that person sees fit, at least within the general guidelines of the site. (No hate speech, political talk in the chat, and so on.) But I am a member, too, and I happen to enjoy reading responses by other Experts—all Experts—and I can think of no one besides Ashish who attaches pertinent sections of their book to assist another member with a query. In full disclosure, I have no affiliation with Education Aisle and have never spoken to Ashish personally. We have crossed paths only in the forum.

Please be respectful of the GMAT Club community. Just so you know, I myself would be happy to help you with a question, as long as I felt you were seeking my opinion in a sincere and respectful way.

Good luck with your studies.

- Andrew
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 13 Apr 2022, 03:13
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Quote:
second, How can ,ing modify musicians? it's modifying Bill and the action of bill- inspired. I've seen it many times ,ing modifies nearest noun...
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The word INCLUDING is not always a "VERB-ING" type modifier.
In fact, INCLUDING is usually a preposition, and that is how it is used in Answer B.

Here is a sentence that uses INCLUDING as a preposition:
Many of my friends, including Bill and Jerry, are still working from home.

This dictionary entry explains how INCLUDING is used:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... /including


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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 13 Apr 2022, 20:24
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Hi dcoolguy,

I respect your right to ask for replies from specific forum members, but as almost all threads on GMAT club are public, if you absolutely need a reply only from those members, you may be better off using the PM feature. If you'd like the answer to your question to help other forum members as well, you could always ask for the reply to be posted in the relevant thread (instead of getting a reply over PM).

Fun fact: This is not just something that I'm asking you to do. I myself sent a PM query to Ashish (EducationAisle) just a few weeks ago asking for a second opinion on something that I needed input on. :)
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 27 Apr 2022, 05:48
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How is 'Influential On' , Influential to' and 'influenced' different from each other and how to identify the correct phrase to be used?
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 29 Apr 2022, 04:46
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How is 'Influential On' , Influential to' and 'influenced' different from each other and how to identify the correct phrase to be used?
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Hello chesly,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, "was influential on", "was influential to", and "influenced" all carry the same meaning; "influenced" is just superior to the former two, as it is active and they as passive.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 05 May 2022, 05:39
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chesly
How is 'Influential On' , Influential to' and 'influenced' different from each other and how to identify the correct phrase to be used?
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It's important to note that the two options with "influential to" can be eliminated right away because of the subject-verb agreement issues (and the other crappiness mentioned in this post). So we don't even have to waste a second thinking about whether "influential to" is okay.

And notice that we didn't go with (B) over (A) and (E) because "were influential on generations" and "were an influence on generations" are WRONG while "influenced generations" is RIGHT. I don't see any good reason to go with the wordier and less direct phrasings in (A) and (E) when we have a simpler and more direct option in (B). But that just gives us one tiny "vote" in favor of (B) over (A) and (E), and you don't want to overreact to that difference alone.

Is that a good enough reason to eliminate (A) and (E)? I wouldn't say so. But when we combine that little vote with the other votes explained in this post, we see that (B) emerges as the better option.

So, please don't try to come up with a list of concrete rules governing the usage of influential on vs. influence on vs. influence vs. influential to. If you try to turn this into a mechanical grammar test, you're going to overlook the important meaning differences that really matter.

I hope that helps!
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 24 May 2022, 02:02
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The hard thing about this question is the fact that there’s some crappy stuff in some answer choices, but that stuff isn’t necessarily WRONG. I like it better when things are WRONG, and I can eliminate them with confidence.

But… well, there’s enough crappy stuff to allow us to get to the right answer without too much pain:

Quote:
(A) were influential on generations of bluegrass artists, was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from
In (A), there’s a lot of crappiness. The phrase “were influential” is a crappy, indirect way to say “influenced” – but it’s not WRONG, exactly. The phrase “was also an inspiration” is a crappy, indirect way to say “also inspire.” And “that included Elvis and Jerry” is a lousy way to say “including Elvis and Jerry.”

Honestly, my reaction to (A) would be “this is a crappy sentence, but I can’t really eliminate it yet.” So I’d keep it, and look for something better. But I’ll spoil the surprise: there are better options coming in a moment.

Quote:
(B) influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from
Well… isn’t this magical? (B) gives us better versions of EVERYTHING I whined about in (A): “influenced” instead of “were influential”; “inspired” instead of “was an inspiration”; and “including” instead of “that included.”

(B) is looking relatively nice. Let’s keep it.

Quote:
(C) was influential to generations of bluegrass artists, was also inspirational to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music was different significantly in comparison to
(C) has a pretty severe subject-verb error: “repertory, views… and vocal style…” needs a plural verb, “were influential”, not “was influential.”

(C) also has some of the same “crappy stuff” we saw in (A): “was inspirational” is a crappy way to say “inspired”, “that included” is a poopy version of “including”, and “was different significantly in comparison” is a tragically bad way to say “differed significantly.”

So we have lots of reasons to ditch (C).

Quote:
(D) was influential to generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, who included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, the music of whom differed significantly when compared to
(D) has exactly the same subject-verb error as (C): “repertory, views… and vocal style…” needs a plural verb, so “was influential” is wrong.

And again: there's lots of crappy stuff here. The phrase “music of whom” is a ridiculous way to say “whose music”, and “differed significantly when compared to” is a really inefficient way to say “different significantly from.”

So (D) is gone, too.

Quote:
(E) were an influence on generations of bluegrass artists, was also an inspiration to many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music was significantly different from that of
If you’ve seen our videos on pronouns or comparisons, you’ve heard me talk about the phrase “that of” (also discussed in this article). In this case, “that” is a singular pronoun, which seems to refer to “music.”

Trouble is, when you re-read that part of the sentence with “music” replacing “that”, it doesn’t really make sense: “…including Elvis and Jerry, whose music was significantly different from the music of his own.” Huh? The phrase “…different from the music of his own” makes no sense. Why not just say “different from his own” instead?

Plus, (E) also features some crappy stuff again: “were an influence” isn’t as sharp as “were influential”, and “was an inspiration” is a lousier version of “inspired”. Those things aren’t WRONG, but they’re definitely not great.

So (E) is out, and (B) is our best bet.
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Hi GMATNinja, AndrewN

to (A):

1. I read in the forum that for lists, the passive form is preferred ( her x,y, and z were impressive vs impressed. Here is the question, with explanation from Bunuel: https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-company- ... 54265.html).
2. The 'was also' for me is important because it clearly refers back to the musician. Just 'also' could mean that his repertory, musical collaboration, and vocal style were an inspiration to many musicians. So this is why I would prefer the option with 'was'

These are the two reasons why I prefer (A). Just the 'including seems to be better in option (B).

Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 24 May 2022, 06:11
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Hi GMATNinja, AndrewN

to (A):

1. I read in the forum that for lists, the passive form is preferred ( her x,y, and z were impressive vs impressed. Here is the question, with explanation from Bunuel: https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-company- ... 54265.html).
2. The 'was also' for me is important because it clearly refers back to the musician. Just 'also' could mean that his repertory, musical collaboration, and vocal style were an inspiration to many musicians. So this is why I would prefer the option with 'was'

These are the two reasons why I prefer (A). Just the 'including seems to be better in option (B).

Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
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Hello, hadimadi. It is always a pleasure to be mentioned alongside GMATNinja. I will offer my thoughts on your queries in my own way. Concerning your first point, that other question is clearly a plagiarized version of this one—the answer choices follow the same patterns, one by one—so it is not worthy of study or discussion. Changing a few words does not create a new question. Stick to this thread. Regarding verb tenses in this question, either the active or passive construct could work, so I would turn to another consideration to separate answer choice (A) from (B).

Moving on to the second point, you are correct: was also in the original sentence comments on the musician—Bill Monroe... was also an inspiration... Still, there is a noticeable lack of parallelism in the two elements joined by also: a, b, and c were influential on [noun] and d was also an inspiration to [noun]. In the former, influential is an adjective; in the latter, an inspiration is, of course, a noun. On the GMAT™, I would look for tighter parallelism, as in, an influence... an inspiration. I would mark this lack of parallelism as a doubt, not grounds for immediate elimination. Notice how answer choice (B) follows a parallel verb pathway: a, b, and c influenced [noun] and d also inspired [noun]. A much stronger case can be made for (B).

Next, we have to confront the comma plus that in the original sentence, because it is unusual to see an essential modifier interrupted on either side by punctuation. What is the sentence aiming to convey?

1) whose repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style were influential on generations of bluegrass artists... that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia

2) Bill Monroe... was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia

At best, the first interpretation makes me wonder why the sentence is seesawing between a main clause on Bill Monroe and a modifying clause. Remember, we already had to seek to justify was also, so if we think of Bill Monroe as element X and the whose clause as element Y, we have two parts of a sentence that seem to be tripping over each other for airtime: X, Y, X, Y... That is, Bill Monroe (X), whose (Y)..., was also (X)..., that included (Y)... There is no reasonable argument that can be made that this sentence conveys the vital meaning in a clear and direct manner.

If we go with the second interpretation above, it begs the question, why does this particular that get special treatment with the comma, when we would expect to see musicians that? Is it some kind of little-known aside or afterthought? The GMAT™ may not be a test of punctuation per se, but if Elvis and Jerry Garcia are meant to belong to this group of musicians, since we cannot negotiate the comma, we would expect to see a non-restrictive which or even who instead. Ask yourself, Does answer choice (B) address and rectify these concerns? The answer is yes, it does. The modifying phrase bypasses the dual interpretation above:

Bill Monroe, whose... generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia

There is no question whether Elvis and Jerry Garcia belong to the group bluegrass artists (this is not a music history course, after all) or musicians. The grammatical structure has taken care of everything.

In short, I have a few legitimate causes for concern in the original sentence, whereas I have none with answer choice (B), so I have to favor the latter. It is not a matter of preference, but of what gets the point across in a clear and concise manner. (Still, looking at my timer data, I spent 1:48 answering the question, perhaps because there was a lot to take in, so it is not as though the question was a breeze for me.)

I will be curious to see what Charles adds to the dialogue. Thank you for thinking to ask for my assistance.

- Andrew
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 02 Jun 2022, 10:58
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Hi GMATNinja, AndrewN

to (A):

1. I read in the forum that for lists, the passive form is preferred ( her x,y, and z were impressive vs impressed. Here is the question, with explanation from Bunuel: https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-company- ... 54265.html).
2. The 'was also' for me is important because it clearly refers back to the musician. Just 'also' could mean that his repertory, musical collaboration, and vocal style were an inspiration to many musicians. So this is why I would prefer the option with 'was'

These are the two reasons why I prefer (A). Just the 'including seems to be better in option (B).

Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
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I don't have much to add to Andrew's thoughtful, comprehensive answer. (And AndrewN, the feeling is mutual!)

I'll add a couple of small points on your first question. First, there's absolutely no reason to believe that passive voice is preferred when dealing with a list. Ignore that.

Second, if I have a construction such as: "Curry, Thompson, and Green were impressive in Game Five," that's not passive voice. When we use the passive voice it means the action is performed on the subject. Here, have an example:

    "Doncic was dunked on by Wiggins with such ferocity that Jason Kidd's head exploded."

This one is passive voice because the action "was dunked on" was performed on the grammatical subject, "Doncic." In this example, Wiggins -- who is not grammatically the subject of the sentence -- actually performs the action.

While this construction isn't wrong, it also isn't clear why the writer wouldn't use the simpler active construction: "Wiggins dunked on Doncic..."

All to say, Andrew is 100% correct that passive vs. active is generally not a great decision point to use. It's better to rely on more concrete issues.

I hope that helps!
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 16 Jun 2022, 17:10
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Hi Experts,

I read in the Manhattan sentence correction book that the word 'that' when used as a pronoun is an essential modifier, and 'that' cannot be preceded by a comma.
This was my only reason to eliminate option A. Although I found other things to be crappy in option A as mentioned by the experts, I don't want to eliminate options just for crappiness. Nevertheless, I didn't see any expert mentioning the usage of 'that' after a comma. Would appreciate some insights from my fellow experts.
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 16 Jun 2022, 21:25
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Vegita
I read in the Manhattan sentence correction book that the word 'that' when used as a pronoun is an essential modifier, and 'that' cannot be preceded by a comma.
This was my only reason to eliminate option A.
Show more
Yes, that is the traditional norm: when the word THAT is used as a relative pronoun (as in Option A), it should introduce an essential modifier.

This is a pared-down version of Option A:
Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from his own

Here are two plus one reasons to eliminate Option A:

Reason 1
Reason 1 is what you wrote. A non-essential modifier after a comma should not begin with THAT. It can begin with WHICH or WHO (or some other pronouns).

Reason 2
When we talk about people, we should use WHO or WHOM, not THAT and not even WHICH.

Adding Reason 3 Concision
Why say Musicians that included Elvis etc when we can say Musicians including Elvis etc

More about THAT (just for info)
THAT can also be used as a demonstrative pronoun, as in this sentence: That is a healthy activity.
The above is a proper, complete sentence.

Of the three sentences below, only the third is acceptable:
1. He loves to play football, it is a healthy activity.
2. He loves to play football, that is a healthy activity.
3. He loves to play football, which is a healthy activity.
The first two sentences have two independent clauses linked by commas (call them run-on sentences or comma splices). That is a fatal error in the GMAT.

Note
Some words that can be used as relative pronouns are THAT, WHICH, WHO, WHOM.
Some words that can be used as demonstrative pronouns are THAT, THIS, THOSE, THESE.

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Vegita
Hi Experts,

I read in the Manhattan sentence correction book that the word 'that' when used as a pronoun is an essential modifier, and 'that' cannot be preceded by a comma.
This was my only reason to eliminate option A. Although I found other things to be crappy in option A as mentioned by the experts, I don't want to eliminate options just for crappiness. Nevertheless, I didn't see any expert mentioning the usage of 'that' after a comma. Would appreciate some insights from my fellow experts.
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Hello Vegita,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, the use of the "comma + that" construction is typically incorrect, however, in some rare cases "that" can be preceded by a comma.

In such cases, the preceding comma must be part of a pair of commas that offset extra information, and the noun that predes the first comma must be one that "that" can correctly and logically refer to.

To understand the rare case when "That" is preceded by a comma, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



All the best!
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 03 Sep 2022, 09:51
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EMPOWERgmatVerbal

I am unable to understand what is the subject for the verb "were influential"
is it
Bill Monroe - in this case verb will be singular
or
Repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style - in this case verb will be plural
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Rickooreo


The subject for influenced/was influential/were influential is "repertory, views, and style." We can tell because that part of the sentence is all part of a modifier. The main core of the sentence is "Bill Monroe also inspired many musicians." In between the subject (B. Monroe) and the verb (inspired), we have a modifier: "whose R.V. & S were influential." The modifier applies to Bill Monroe, but it contains its own compound subject and verb.
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In option B there is a comma between musicians and verb-ing modifier. If verb-ing modifier is modifying the musicians then comma should not be there. And as comma is present so it acts as an action modifier.
Please clarify
Due Regards
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himanshu0077
In option B there is a comma between musicians and verb-ing modifier. If verb-ing modifier is modifying the musicians then comma should not be there. And as comma is present so it acts as an action modifier.
Please clarify
Due Regards
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Hello himanshu0077,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, since the clause preceding the comma is not an independent clause, the present participle can modify the preceding noun rather than the entire clause.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 06 Sep 2022, 01:09
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himanshu0077
In option B there is a comma between musicians and verb-ing modifier.
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That's the word "including". You need to memorize that this word is exceptional: comma + "INCLUDING" is ••NOT•• a comma + _ING modifier.

"including xxxxxxxxx stuff" is actually a prepositional phrase. It's not the right kind of _ING form to make a comma + _ING modifier, because it's NOT derived directly from the VERB "include".
(That verb has a different meaning altogether, in which a person—who is the subject of the verb—makes a conscious decision to "include" somebody or something in an activity/project/collection/etc. This preposition "including", by contrast, does NOT have a subject/agent, because it does not describe "inclusion" as a person's conscious choice.)


The information above is mostly just for completeness. When you evaluate an instance of comma + "including" in a real sentence, you definitely shouldn't think through any of the stuff above (other than "this is NOT a comma+_ING modifier!"). Just verify the following:


The modifier "comma + INCLUDING xxxxxxxx" is correctly used if...

• the "xxxxxxxx" thing(s) or person(s) belong to a certain group or category, and are presented as EXAMPLES of that group/category;

• "xxxxxxxxx" is NOT a complete list of everything/everybody in the whole group/category;

• the group/category is named by a NOUN (or noun+modifiers, if necessary) that is written before the comma.
This NOUN is what's modified by "including xxxxxxxx".

The second condition is essential. "Including" is very specifically meant to introduce EXAMPLES. It is INCORRECTLY used if it introduces an exhaustive listing of everything/everybody in the group.
(If you're going to list everything, you should use "comprising", "consisting of", or some other equivalent word.)

Please confirm that the instance of comma + "including...." in choice B satisfies these conditions. (This should be straightforward.)
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 23 Nov 2022, 05:20
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The hard thing about this question is the fact that there’s some crappy stuff in some answer choices, but that stuff isn’t necessarily WRONG. I like it better when things are WRONG, and I can eliminate them with confidence.

But… well, there’s enough crappy stuff to allow us to get to the right answer without too much pain:

Quote:
(A) were influential on generations of bluegrass artists, was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from
In (A), there’s a lot of crappiness. The phrase “were influential” is a crappy, indirect way to say “influenced” – but it’s not WRONG, exactly. The phrase “was also an inspiration” is a crappy, indirect way to say “also inspire.” And “that included Elvis and Jerry” is a lousy way to say “including Elvis and Jerry.”

Honestly, my reaction to (A) would be “this is a crappy sentence, but I can’t really eliminate it yet.” So I’d keep it, and look for something better. But I’ll spoil the surprise: there are better options coming in a moment.

Quote:
(B) influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from
Well… isn’t this magical? (B) gives us better versions of EVERYTHING I whined about in (A): “influenced” instead of “were influential”; “inspired” instead of “was an inspiration”; and “including” instead of “that included.”

(B) is looking relatively nice. Let’s keep it.

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Hello GMATNinja
Sir,
I've read whole explanation. It's just awesome, but facing a little problem with the explanation of choice A.
Quote:
The phrase “was also an inspiration” is a crappy, indirect way to say “also inspire.
Show more

^^ In choice B, as we used verb 'inspired', the 'influenced' perfectly fine to me, but in choice A as we used 'inspiration', then the 'influential' also makes sense to me as in parallelism purpose! Am I missing anything, please?
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 23 Nov 2022, 06:12
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AjiteshArun
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Hello everyone,
This may be a very noob query, but it is bothering me a lot.
Why is the option B not eliminated straight away due to ambiguity.. Let me clarify-
The words 'also inspired' could refer to either bill monroe or his views.
There seems to be an additional error, if you assume that 'also inspired' refers to the compound subject his views, repertory, then where is the verb for the main subject bill monroe.
And if you assume that it refers to bill monroe, then what is the word 'also' doing there.. What did bill monroe do previously?
I am new to SC and please pardon me if i am missing something obvious.
There is no ambiguity in this case, because inspired is the main verb in option B. This is the sentence we get:

Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from his own.

The also is not incorrect. It continues the idea introduced by the whose repertory... bit without being part of the same structure. For example:

Her father, who is considered one of the best CEOs ever, is also a capable cook.

Here the also continues the CEO idea, even though it is not attached to the who is... clause.
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Quote:
Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from his own.
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AjiteshArun
Thanks for the explanation.
So, the core is:
Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from his own.

^^ The word also should have some backgrounds, right? Without doing X, we can't say that we're doing also Y. I don't know how also comes here?
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Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical coll 23 Nov 2022, 13:23
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TheUltimateWinner
Sir,
I've read whole explanation. It's just awesome, but facing a little problem with the explanation of choice A.
Quote:
The phrase “was also an inspiration” is a crappy, indirect way to say “also inspire.

^^ In choice B, as we used verb 'inspired', the 'influenced' perfectly fine to me, but in choice A as we used 'inspiration', then the 'influential' also makes sense to me as in parallelism purpose! Am I missing anything, please?
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Glad our explanation helped!

Yeah, the verb tenses (which have nothing to do with "parallelism") are certainly consistent within choice (A) and within choice (B) -- and if they weren't, that wouldn't necessarily be a dealbreaker.

Looking at (A) in a bubble, there's nothing flat-out "wrong" about it... but (B) is a better sentence.
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