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Although she was considered among her contemporaries to be the better

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New post 24 Dec 2019, 01:50
Hi in option choice D, shouldnt it be Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by that of her husband's, among her contemporaries she was considered the better poet?

Husband's and not husband. If not, what is the reasoning for the same?
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New post 24 Dec 2019, 07:07
Kritisood wrote:
Hi in option choice D, shouldnt it be Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by that of her husband's, among her contemporaries she was considered the better poet?

Husband's and not husband. If not, what is the reasoning for the same?


The problem, Kritisood, with opting for a possessive husband's is that that of already draws the comparison. The correct sentence is expressing the notion that Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by the success of her husband...

Without that of, we would indeed need a possessive apostrophe to compare success to success:
Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by her husband's success...

When you stick the two together, though, what you are really saying is that
Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by the success of her husband's success...

I think you would agree that this last sentence is nonsensical and redundant. How can her husband's success be doubly successful? I hope that helps resolve your query. If not, feel free to follow up with another question.

Good luck with your studies.

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New post 24 Dec 2019, 19:49
VeritasKarishma wrote:
Check out our detailed video solution to this problem here:
https://www.veritasprep.com/gmat-soluti ... ection_805


Hi VeritasKarishma,
The link is no longer valid. I mean it ope the link but the player displays embedded link is not valid
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New post 16 Mar 2020, 16:33
srikrishnans92 wrote:
Although she was considered among her contemporaries to be the better poet than her husband, later Elizabeth Barrett Browning was overshadowed by his success.


(A) Although she was considered among her contemporaries to be the better poet than her husband, later Elizabeth Barrett Browning was overshadowed by his success.

(B) Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning was considered among her contemporaries as a better poet than her husband, she was later overshadowed by his success.

(C) Later overshadowed by the success of her husband, Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry had been considered among her contemporaries to be better than that of her husband.

(D) Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by that of her husband, among her contemporaries she was considered the better poet.

(E) Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry was considered among her contemporaries as better than her husband, but her success was later overshadowed by his.


The Official Guide for GMAT Review 2017

Practice Question
Question No.: SC 805
Page: 710

Elizabeth Barrett Browning

(A) Comparison / Idiom (the better poet than)

(B) Idiom (considered as)

(C) Modifier / Meaning (Later overshadowed …)

(D) CORRECT

(E) Idiom (considered as); Comparison (X is better than Y)


First glance

The entire sentence is underlined. Full-underline problems often test one of the Big 4 topics: Structure, Meaning, Modifiers, and Parallelism.

Issues

(1) Comparison / Idiom: the better poet than

Comparison: X is better than Y

The better poet than is not a proper comparison construction.

One person can be a better poet than another person. When speaking of two people, you can also say that one person is the better poet. Starting the phrase with the word the (instead of a) indicates that you have already mentioned the two people in question. Since this is the case, you do not need to make a full comparison (this person is a better poet than the other person). You can just say that, of the two people, this person is the better poet. Eliminate choice (A).

The other four choices do not make this specific mistake, but choice (E) does introduce a different comparison error. Browning’s poetry was … better than her husband. Comparisons must compare similar things—poetry to poetry or person to person. In this choice, though, poetry is compared to a person (her husband). Eliminate choice (E).

(2) Idiom: considered as

The answers differ in their treatment of the word considered. Choices (A) and (C) use considered … to be X, choices (B) and (E) use considered … as X, and choice D uses considered X.

It is correct to say considered X (She considers him funny). It can be acceptable to say considered to be X (She considers him to be funny), though the to be is not necessary and, in some cases, is considered wrong. If you see considered to be X, be suspicious, but look for something more solid to eliminate that choice.

Considered as X (She considers him as funny) is almost always incorrect. You can eliminate answer choices based on this construction. In this case, eliminate choices (B) and (E).

(3) Modifier / Meaning: Later overshadowed …

Choice (C) begins with an opening modifier: Later overshadowed by the success of her husband, Elizabeth Barrett Browning’s poetry had been …

This choice compares her husband’s success to her own poetry. The comparison should be either between her husband’s success and Browning’s success (Later overshadowed by the success of her husband, Browning’s success …) or between the poetry of each person (Later overshadowed by the success of her husband’s poetry, Browning’s poetry ….). Eliminate (C) for a faulty comparison.

The Correct Answer

Correct answer (D) properly compares Browning’s success to that [the success] of her husband. It also uses the later comparison idiom correctly: she was considered the better poet.


Correct Idiom: Consider X Y

(A) Although she was considered among her contemporaries to be the better poet than her husband, later Elizabeth Barrett Browning was overshadowed by his success. - Wrong: 1) Modifier 2) Idiom

(B) Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning was considered among her contemporaries as a better poet than her husband, she was later overshadowed by his success. - Wrong: Idiom

(C) Later overshadowed by the success of her husband, Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry had been considered among her contemporaries to be better than that of her husband. - Wrong: 1) Idiom 2) Modifier 3) Verb

(D) Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by that of her husband, among her contemporaries she was considered the better poet. - Correct

(E) Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry was considered among her contemporaries as better than her husband, but her success was later overshadowed by his. - Wrong: 1) Comparison 2) Idiom
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New post 01 Jun 2020, 05:38
Based on the meaning alone I chose B over D.

The problem with D is the possessive pronoun rule which I thought would be greater of the 2 errors present in each of the options(B has idiom error) whereas D has this as mentioned.

GMATNinja - can you kindly help out here with the explanation?
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New post 09 Jun 2020, 21:49
daagh wrote:
Pronoun reference is a vexatious issue. There are worse cases in which one can find many suitors for the antecedence for a given pronoun. So it is not possible to convincingly dismiss pronoun ambiguity or antecedence that easily.

Even so, in the given case, there is not even an element of equivocation in the given question. Elizabeth is the only female antecedent in the prompt and the pronoun ‘she’ can only refer to that lady. In other words, this is the way GMAC wants us to avoid too much nuancing on pronoun reference.

One may note that all other choices are idiomatically unacceptable as per GMAT norms.


Hi Daagh or any other expert,

There was another official question in which "considered to be" was used in all the options. Hence, how do we know which is a "Bigger error" which warrants rejection?
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New post 09 Jun 2020, 22:12
shanks2020 wrote:
Hi Daagh or any other expert,

There was another official question in which "considered to be" was used in all the options. Hence, how do we know which is a "Bigger error" which warrants rejection?

Clearly, if the same flaw appears in all the choices, you don't have to worry about that flaw, because it's not a decision point if it appears in all the choices.

Regarding your question, when faced with a Sentence Correction question with five flawed choices, the move is to compare issues and, hopefully, find a clear difference.

For instance, if one choice has a subject-verb agreement error, while another uses "considered to be," the one with the subject-verb agreement error is blatantly and unarguably incorrect, while the one that uses "considered to be" has a minor flaw, and in fact, in using "considered to be," uses an expression that many people use often.

So, in that case, there is a clear difference between the two issues, and you'd choose the one that uses "considered to be" over the one with the subject-verb agreement error.

Generally, you can find that kind of difference between the flaws.

If, somehow, you are forced to choose between choices that are flawed in ways that are not clearly different in terms of egregiousness, then you have to do your best to figure out which the writer of the question felt to be the better choice. Doing so is not always easy, but generally, there's some aspect of the wording of one choice or a theme in the question that tips you off to the fact that a certain choice is the one that the question's writer considered correct.
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New post 09 Jun 2020, 22:50
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
shanks2020 wrote:
Hi Daagh or any other expert,

There was another official question in which "considered to be" was used in all the options. Hence, how do we know which is a "Bigger error" which warrants rejection?

Clearly, if the same flaw appears in all the choices, you don't have to worry about that flaw, because it's not a decision point if it appears in all the choices.

Regarding your question, when faced with a Sentence Correction question with five flawed choices, the move is to compare issues and, hopefully, find a clear difference.

For instance, if one choice has a subject-verb agreement error, while another uses "considered to be," the one with the subject-verb agreement error is blatantly and unarguably incorrect, while the one that uses "considered to be" has a minor flaw, and in fact, in using "considered to be," uses an expression that many people use often.

So, in that case, there is a clear difference between the two issues, and you'd choose the one that uses "considered to be" over the one with the subject-verb agreement error.

Generally, you can find that kind of difference between the flaws.

If, somehow, you are forced to choose between choices that are flawed in ways that are not clearly different in terms of egregiousness, then you have to do your best to figure out which the writer of the question felt to be the better choice. Doing so is not always easy, but generally, there's some aspect of the wording of one choice or a theme in the question that tips you off to the fact that a certain choice is the one that the question's writer considered correct.


Thanks a lot Marty for your detailed explanation. How often do you think or based on your experience, would one have to go through such situations?
I have recently come across a series of exceptions, which otherwise i would reject straightaway, for eg. which modifying a noun by jumping over a verb, If used with a present perfect, etc.
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New post 10 Jun 2020, 04:13
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shanks2020 wrote:
Thanks a lot Marty for your detailed explanation. How often do you think or based on your experience, would one have to go through such situations?
I have recently come across a series of exceptions, which otherwise i would reject straightaway, for eg. which modifying a noun by jumping over a verb, If used with a present perfect, etc.

I'm not 100 percent sure, but maybe 1 out of 50 SC questions has a "correct" answer that is flawed in some minor but definable way that a grade school teacher would have an issue with and that would make a GMAT test-taker wonder whether the answer should be eliminated.

That said, in many many SC questions, the "correct answers" are rather poorly constructed.

That said, some of the things you are calling "exceptions," such as a modifier jumping a verb, are uncommon structures rather than flawed structures.
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New post 10 Jun 2020, 06:40
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
shanks2020 wrote:
Thanks a lot Marty for your detailed explanation. How often do you think or based on your experience, would one have to go through such situations?
I have recently come across a series of exceptions, which otherwise i would reject straightaway, for eg. which modifying a noun by jumping over a verb, If used with a present perfect, etc.

I'm not 100 percent sure, but maybe 1 out of 50 SC questions has a "correct" answer that is flawed in some minor but definable way that a grade school teacher would have an issue with and that would make a GMAT test-taker wonder whether the answer should be eliminated.

That said, in many many SC questions, the "correct answers" are rather poorly constructed.

That said, some of the things you are calling "exceptions," such as a modifier jumping a verb, are uncommon structures rather than flawed structures.


Thanks Marty.
Can you please suggest any tip which can help in identifying these uncommon structures such as "which jumping over a verb to modify the noun in that clause" and "IF followed by present perfect and not simple present" ?
A tip which can prevent me from rejecting a correct choice straightaway?
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New post 10 Jun 2020, 09:44
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shanks2020 wrote:
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
That said, some of the things you are calling "exceptions," such as a modifier jumping a verb, are uncommon structures rather than flawed structures.


Thanks Marty.
Can you please suggest any tip which can help in identifying these uncommon structures such as "which jumping over a verb to modify the noun in that clause" and "IF followed by present perfect and not simple present" ?
A tip which can prevent me from rejecting a correct choice straightaway?

You can be wary of being too rule driven when you answer questions. Especially if you are not 100 percent sure that something is "against the rules," don't be too quick to eliminate a choice.

Also, be ready to go back and de-eliminate a choice if you don't find one that works. You may have to go with something that seems to break the rules.

Of course, by answering more SC questions, you will see more of these uncommon structures and become prepared for them.
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New post 10 Jun 2020, 10:15
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MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
shanks2020 wrote:
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
That said, some of the things you are calling "exceptions," such as a modifier jumping a verb, are uncommon structures rather than flawed structures.


Thanks Marty.
Can you please suggest any tip which can help in identifying these uncommon structures such as "which jumping over a verb to modify the noun in that clause" and "IF followed by present perfect and not simple present" ?
A tip which can prevent me from rejecting a correct choice straightaway?

You can be wary of being too rule driven when you answer questions. Especially if you are not 100 percent sure that something is "against the rules," don't be too quick to eliminate a choice.

Also, be ready to go back and de-eliminate a choice if you don't find one that works. You may have to go with something that seems to break the rules.

Of course, by answering more SC questions, you will see more of these uncommon structures and become prepared for them.

Marty, I have been following this dialogue as it has unfolded, and I could not have said this last bit any better. Exceptions can be frustrating sometimes, but separating answer choices into those you know are wrong and those you simply have reservations about is one of the best ways to increase accuracy, and practice helps narrow the pool of reasonable choices to (typically) no more than a 50/50.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. The whole community benefits by reading them.

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New post 10 Jun 2020, 10:31
MentorTutoring wrote:
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
shanks2020 wrote:
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
That said, some of the things you are calling "exceptions," such as a modifier jumping a verb, are uncommon structures rather than flawed structures.


Thanks Marty.
Can you please suggest any tip which can help in identifying these uncommon structures such as "which jumping over a verb to modify the noun in that clause" and "IF followed by present perfect and not simple present" ?
A tip which can prevent me from rejecting a correct choice straightaway?

You can be wary of being too rule driven when you answer questions. Especially if you are not 100 percent sure that something is "against the rules," don't be too quick to eliminate a choice.

Also, be ready to go back and de-eliminate a choice if you don't find one that works. You may have to go with something that seems to break the rules.

Of course, by answering more SC questions, you will see more of these uncommon structures and become prepared for them.

Marty, I have been following this dialogue as it has unfolded, and I could not have said this last bit any better. Exceptions can be frustrating sometimes, but separating answer choices into those you know are wrong and those you simply have reservations about is one of the best ways to increase accuracy, and practice helps narrow the pool of reasonable choices to (typically) no more than a 50/50.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. The whole community benefits by reading them.

- Andrew


In the meanwhile, i just encountered one more, an official sentence which has not only, but neither but nor but also. I have come to think that it's these outside of typical usage structures that make a question hard or easy.
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New post 19 Jun 2020, 20:01
VeritasKarishma VIdeo not available on the link. Can you please help with a video link/ solution to this probllem?
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New post 21 Jun 2020, 17:54
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pratyush86 wrote:
Based on the meaning alone I chose B over D.

The problem with D is the possessive pronoun rule which I thought would be greater of the 2 errors present in each of the options(B has idiom error) whereas D has this as mentioned.

GMATNinja - can you kindly help out here with the explanation?

Sorry that I'm late to the party on this! Lots of good discussion on this thread lately -- props to Andrew and Marty in particular.

pratyush86, as some others have said here, the GMAT is pretty fickle when it comes to following our so-called grammar "rules". But the GMAT is ALWAYS interested in clarity of meaning.

So with that in mind, which makes more sense: that Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was overshadowed by [the success] of her husband? Or that Elizabeth Barrett Browning herself was overshadowed by the success of her husband?

The more logical meaning is that her SUCCESS was overshadowed by her husband's success (Can a person herself be overshadowed? If so, what does that even mean?). But if we're blindly following convenient "rules", we overlook significant meaning issues.

For more on the fact that there are painfully few absolute rules that ALWAYS apply on GMAT SC, check out this post.

I hope that helps a bit!
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New post 22 Jun 2020, 01:11
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Mbagoal123 wrote:
VeritasKarishma VIdeo not available on the link. Can you please help with a video link/ solution to this probllem?


Yes, the link is not working anymore.

The correct usage of consider is 'Consider A B'
not 'consider A as B' or 'consider A to be B'.

Also, comparison should be made between parallel elements. So Elizabeth's poetry was better than her husband's poetry, not her husband.
We should say - Elizabeth's success was overshadowed by her husband's success or that Elizabeth was overshadowed by her husband. Saying that Elizabeth's poetry was overshadowed by her husband's success or some such combination is wrong.

Hence (D) is the only correct option.
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New post 22 Jun 2020, 03:14
"considered to be" or even "considered as" are the idioms which are incorrect in some context. this mean for some phrase, "consider x y" can be better than "consider x to be y".

similarly, possessive poison, the case in which pronoun refers to noun is possessive is also an error when there is a better choice

in this problem, gmat dont focus on grammar and idiom but on meaning. this is in line with the article of gmat saying that gmat will focus more on meaning

the point here is if we focus on meaning than on grammar idiom, we can escape from the memory of idiom to make clear meaning. focus on meaning helps us go to correct answer .

in choice A and B, "considered among her contemporaries" is not logical. this makes no sense. among her comtemporaries, she is better than her husband. this is logical.

some idioms and phrases in english do not follow strict rules. this means different persons use different versions of idioms. so, it is not important for gmat to declare which idioms are correct and which are not correct. instead, gmat force us focus on meaning and avoid the arguable idioms.
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New post 01 Jul 2020, 23:43
So
B vs D

In option B: If we carefully examine this sentence, it appears that Elizabeth was overshadowed by her husband's success. Now how can we compare a person to something abstract?
D fits and makes the right comparisons: The first part compares wife to husband , and the second part compares their successes.
Hope this helps!
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New post 02 Jul 2020, 04:35
Hi GMATNinja,

In the OA (D), subject pronoun she is referring back to the possessive noun Elizabeth Barett Browning's success.

Referring to your earlier posts on GMATClub and Live Video series, I had eliminated this choice.

I chose B, but now I realise that the usage of Idiom "Consider as" is wrong in this choice.

However, which one do I give more weightage to? Idioms or Pronouns?

TIA.
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New post 10 Jul 2020, 01:19
VeritasKarishma wrote:
Mbagoal123 wrote:
VeritasKarishma VIdeo not available on the link. Can you please help with a video link/ solution to this probllem?


Yes, the link is not working anymore.

The correct usage of consider is 'Consider A B'
not 'consider A as B' or 'consider A to be B'.

Also, comparison should be made between parallel elements. So Elizabeth's poetry was better than her husband's poetry, not her husband.
We should say - Elizabeth's success was overshadowed by her husband's success or that Elizabeth was overshadowed by her husband. Saying that Elizabeth's poetry was overshadowed by her husband's success or some such combination is wrong.

Hence (D) is the only correct option.


But in (C) there is a "that" after "than". For this reason I thought that parallelism was well established. It seems to correctly compare EBB's poetry to that of her husband. Where am I wrong here?

Later overshadowed by the success of her husband, Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry had been considered among her contemporaries to be better than that of her husband.
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