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# "when" as a relative clause

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Manager
Joined: 29 Jul 2019
Posts: 52
"when" as a relative clause  [#permalink]

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07 Aug 2019, 00:06
"when" functioning as a relative pronoun in a relative clause can only take the subject of the sentence?
like in this example
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs

here when cannot refer to mice, because it's not the subject, I heard that in a manhattan video but "that" can remove the ambiguity, why is that?
both "that" and "when" are relative pronouns and both are attached to "in mice" then why is it that "that" can refer to mice but not "when"?
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Joined: 09 Jan 2017
Posts: 314
Location: India
Re: "when" as a relative clause  [#permalink]

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09 Aug 2019, 07:38
neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs

I dont know if i have perceived your point correctly or not, but the "that" is a restrictive clause here, i.e, that is restricting the canaries to only a specific sub set "those learn new songs"

In GMAT English, when as a relative pronoun basically refers back to a time-frame, not any object. so, preferably use "that" to correctly track back mice.

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"when" as a relative clause  [#permalink]

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09 Aug 2019, 08:20
This is not a complete sentence is rather a fragment.

the production=> Subject

of new brain cells=> Describing subject further.

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

Use of that in place of when will change the meaning of the subject.

My grammar is not good AjiteshArun please clear us on this above issue.

Thanks

rohitchayal wrote:
"when" functioning as a relative pronoun in a relative clause can only take the subject of the sentence?
like in this example
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs

here when cannot refer to mice, because it's not the subject, I heard that in a manhattan video but "that" can remove the ambiguity, why is that?
both "that" and "when" are relative pronouns and both are attached to "in mice" then why is it that "that" can refer to mice but not "when"?

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Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Posts: 1892
"when" as a relative clause  [#permalink]

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09 Aug 2019, 10:07
2
This is not a complete sentence is rather a fragment.

the production=> Subject

of new brain cells=> Describing subject further.

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

Use of that in place of when will change the meaning of the subject.

My grammar is not good AjiteshArun please clear us on this above issue.

Thanks

rohitchayal wrote:
"when" functioning as a relative pronoun in a relative clause can only take the subject of the sentence?
like in this example
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs

here when cannot refer to mice, because it's not the subject, I heard that in a manhattan video but "that" can remove the ambiguity, why is that?
both "that" and "when" are relative pronouns and both are attached to "in mice" then why is it that "that" can refer to mice but not "when"?

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

rohitchayal,
documented examples>Subject
the production of new brain cells>Appositive of neurogenesis
or>>Parallel marker
Underlined part>parallel each other
So this one is NOT sentence fragment at all!
"When" is used as "time frame".
Manhattan says: "object of preposition" can't be subject anymore. In this sentence, "mice" is object of preposition and "canaries" is also object of preposition. So they can't be subject anymore, but if the sentence permit then it can be the subject! "Mice" is not time frame, so "when" did not modify "mice" here. "That" modifies "canaries". So "canaries" is the subject of the verb "learn".
....
PS-the above explanation is just to clarify your query, but at the end of the day your sentence is not correct for the wrong use of modifier (growing), wrong use of "when" (if you put "when" here it seems that "the brain is placed in stimulating blah blah..). Also, we're talking about the "examples of neurogenesis". "The brain" and "neurons" can't be the "examples of neurogenesis" anymore!
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Status: GMAT Club Team Member
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Re: "when" as a relative clause  [#permalink]

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10 Aug 2019, 03:13

You are right, i didn't taken care of commas, thanks for clarification.

This is not a complete sentence is rather a fragment.

the production=> Subject

of new brain cells=> Describing subject further.

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

Use of that in place of when will change the meaning of the subject.

My grammar is not good AjiteshArun please clear us on this above issue.

Thanks

rohitchayal wrote:
"when" functioning as a relative pronoun in a relative clause can only take the subject of the sentence?
like in this example
Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs

here when cannot refer to mice, because it's not the subject, I heard that in a manhattan video but "that" can remove the ambiguity, why is that?
both "that" and "when" are relative pronouns and both are attached to "in mice" then why is it that "that" can refer to mice but not "when"?

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

rohitchayal,
documented examples>Subject
the production of new brain cells>Appositive of neurogenesis
or>>Parallel marker
Underlined part>parallel each other
So this one is NOT sentence fragment at all!
"When" is used as "time frame".
Manhattan says: "object of preposition" can't be subject anymore. In this sentence, "mice" is object of preposition and "canaries" is also object of preposition. So they can't be subject anymore, but if the sentence permit then it can be the subject! "Mice" is not time frame, so "when" did not modify "mice" here. "That" modifies "canaries". So "canaries" is the subject of the verb "learn".
....
PS-the above explanation is just to clarify your query, but at the end of the day your sentence is not correct for the wrong use of modifier (growing), wrong use of "when" (if you put "when" here it seems that "the brain is placed in stimulating blah blah..). Also, we're talking about the "examples of neurogenesis". "The brain" and "neurons" can't be the "examples of neurogenesis" anymore!

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Re: "when" as a relative clause   [#permalink] 10 Aug 2019, 03:13